SS Contract and Single Rune serial study

[mrfarb]

A collector friend of mine does have an SS rifle that was liberated from Dachau. Still in the shipping box that it was sent home with wrapped in newspaper. As of now it's still completely in parts and still greasy the way it was packed. I'll try to talk to him about getting the serial number on it maybe that may help something in the information department.

That would be awesome! I don't think you could connect any specific SS contract rifle to Dachau depot (other than like this, in a box). Heck, even soldiers traded among themselves on the ship home, so a guy who was never even near Dachau or an SS anything might have brought one home. I merely mention this as an interesting thing to think about.

 

[heavy_mech]

Like Mike said I also don't know too much about Dachau, but Oranienburg was an important depot and was also used for a significant period by the Soviet puppet DDR regime for the same purposes. I think from what I've read it was well developed and an important part of the SS supply and storage system.

 

[heavy_mech]

My point was despite the importance of the Depot within the system I personally don't think the majority of rifles or other goods came from them. Some certainly, just not most

 

[mrfarb]

Yes, Oranienburg was the most important because it was right next to Berlin and the seat of power. The map showing the SS-Zeugamt there shows it was very large.

 

[mrfarb]

My point was despite the importance of the Depot within the system I personally don't think the majority of rifles or other goods came from them. Some certainly, just not most

I would agree with that, the camps weren't there to deal with rifles, although at Dachau the SS-Zeugamt there did rework a lot of small arms.

 

[heavy_mech]

Something else not related to Nazis, Germany or even WW2 is if you're a losing Army on it's last legs pushed up against the wall and you're issuing your Volkssturm zip guns, what sense would it possibly make to have perfectly functional, front-line equipment sitting in a nearby Depot??? Especially huge piles of it? I'm talking immediately prior to capitulation, not '43 or '44

 

[mrfarb]

Something else not related to Nazis, Germany or even WW2 is if you're a losing Army on it's last legs pushed up against the wall and you're issuing your Volkssturm zip guns, what sense would it possibly make to have perfectly functional, front-line equipment sitting in a nearby Depot??? Especially huge piles of it? I'm talking immediately prior to capitulation, not '43 or '44

It seems to make very little sense. BUT, do you see the SS depot handing out rifles to anyone that walks up to the gate? Imagine it this way - if the US was under attack, would you be able to got to the nearest armory and draw weapons and ammo? Of course not. The administrative system would obviously dole out weapons as needed to appropriate agencies, but what if there weren't enough troops under your jurisdiction to dole out weapons to? Or, what if your fighting soldiers drew weapons from Army depots and not your own? Food for thought. It doesn't have to be 10's of thousands of rifles, only a few thousand 98k's in a depot would give a lot of men in the 45th Division a souvenir (although occupation troops would get the bulk of the souvenirs, the troops that liberated the camp moved on to fight the war). I didn't really intend this to turn into a discussion about where bringbacks come from, just a feeling I have personally.

 

[heavy_mech]

Absolutely Mike. I only meant it as a counter to the thought that there might be 1000's or tens of 1000's of brand new rifles sitting in racks. I think that's totally unrealistic, just as absurd as the SS Depot managers handing out weapons to anyone who walked up... although maybe in the last few days that wasn't as much of a consideration?

 

[heavy_mech]

Well I think we're kind of on topic because we're trying to work out how many and where they came from re: SS rifles, right?

 

[mrfarb]

Sure, it’s on topic and fair game. I think it’s all academic though, for some reason nobody ever spoke about large caches of weapons. Hell, I couldn’t even find a story about the capture of the Steyr assembly area, thousands of 98k’s came from that hoard. It always puzzled me, but you did hear stories from the Walther plant and P.38’s. I guess nobody cared about a bunch of Mausers.


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[Loewe]

Odds are fairly good Gusen is where a lot of these rifles were residing in May 1945, - it is known the US Army removed everything they could move before it was turned over to the Red Army (June-July 1945, - by a lucky coincidence SDP-Steyr, SDP-Graz fell in the US-English zones and although "captured" and looted by the Red Army between May and June 1945, the facilities were turned over to the US/English forces in June 1945. The Red Army got an empty Gusen... once it was realized the Red Army was looting Austrian facilities, the US Army did the same, subsequently turning over Gusen machinery to SDP, who in turn swapped some machines with a Polish delegation)

Naturally I think Mike is correct in his assessment of SDP and the SS contract, we spoke at length on this subject and it is a certainty that the SS contracts rolled over a number of times, the trends show this clearly. It is also obvious that the German Army was anything but thrilled with the entire programs SDP entered with the SS to manufacture rifles. Largely on the back of Army money. SDP was not owned by the SS, they were up to their eyeballs in debt to the LW and Army, technically they were "owned" by the Armaments Ministry and operated under the direction of Rhinemetall, another state owned operation (Georg Meindl thought he was John Wayne, he did damn well what he wanted.. with assbudies like Kaltenbrunner/Seyss-Inquart, fellow Austrian nazi assholes, who could blame him). Once the SS took over the Armaments Ministry, during Speer's illness this was irrelevant of course, but in the Spring of 1943 (when the SS contract was signed) it was a sore point for the German Army. I think it is beyond absurd to suggest the SS contract was destine to the front line units, a significant part of the rifles (junk quality, - the Army made a point to note these were made outside of Army inspection and therefore unsuited for military use) probably languished in SS depots or some police ordnance facility (there is a list of police depots longer than my arm...), what were used probably ended up at the KL's or police organizations, possibly some anti-partisan "half-soldiers/murderers", and a ridiculous few at the front near the end of the war. When the SS was in control and did damn well anything it wanted... a large number were probably in Poland, the SS "Disneyland" 1939-1945, where they murdered indiscriminately and indiscreetly, both at the extermination centers and the military factories (the Army ran munitions operations in Poland, largely with Jew and Pole labor, all ultimately at the discretion of the SS, who were not beyond a round up and shooting of workers if the Army annoyed them)

Such nastiness of the SS operations required rifles, the Army was never eager to supply them, the entire purpose of the 1943 contract was to satisfy this need, so it stands to reason the SS used these rifles to arm their executioner and police organizations (non-soldiers, - front line SS units would obviously be supplied by the Army). The fact that SS contract rifles survive in large numbers in essentially unused condition, or rather rifles showing little to any period use (what use they often show is post-1945 mishandling and abuse), far in excess of their SDP Army counterparts, speaks volumes in this regard

As for SDP-Walther, SDP was never a Walther, not after 1938 anyway, - the likes of G.B. Jarrett was eager to visit Walther, no such eagerness was shown at SDP operations. Molln after all was just some temporary barracks (shacks, wooden structures), a outhouse in the middle of nowhere... Walther is was in Z-M and nearby Suhl, also an industrial area of some importance. Anyway, I doubt any GI was eager to brag about capturing a bnz/45, he probably would have been prouder of strutting around some fat Austrian fräulein than a crappy bnz/45.

*** SDP was investigated by US Army ordnance teams, teams that were tasked with investigating unusual or innovative weapons. The team sent to SDP found nothing worth studying.

 

[heavy_mech]

Odds are fairly good Gusen is where a lot of these rifles were residing in May 1945.

I was under the impression rifles were not assembled at Gusen and they only made parts while the rifles were assembled in Moln? Am I missing something?

..probably languished in SS depots or some police ordnance facility (there is a list of police depots longer than my arm...), what were used probably ended up at the KL's or police organizations, possibly some anti-partisan "half-soldiers/murderers".

Based on this statement I'm reading there were no huge (100s+) caches of rifles at a single location but rather 10s or dozens at many locations spread across the East.

 

[Warrior1354]

Ok the rifle did not come out of Dachau. There is no history except for the fact that it came from Ohio where the vet lived. It has a capture paper from what my friend remembers, and the most beautiful calligraphy on the box that he had ever seen. Basically the rifle was forgotten in the guys attic along time ago. It just so happen too be SS contract gun. He does have a flag from a guy who's father was a medical officer and got it in Dachau.

 

[heavy_mech]

Ok the rifle did not come out of Dachau..

Well I suppose it certainly could have. They did have a depot there so...

I only said I didn't know much about the activities there. I'd be inclined to go with what it said on the crate or notes inside it.

 

[Loewe]

I have long argued just that, - small arms were not assembled at Gusen - long before anyone else that I recall. Mike and I discussed the possibilities regarding where they were manufactured, we never fully agreeing.

The reason why I always disapproved of Gusen as an assembly point was the risks inherent in fireproofing and testing, the stockpiles of ammo, which is considerable for testing. This was probably more true of low quality, non-military acceptance rifles than normal production and Mauser for instance used enormous amounts. To store completed rifles would not carry the same risks (just as today, a rifle with no ammo is a club, so too would be a stash of stored rifles in some building near an SS facility) if ammo was not nearby. Gusen probably represents the best nearby location due to the nature of its operations. To make small arms components would entail some selective security measures... the fact that the SS contracts ended when the SS achieved absolute supremacy over the economy (and no further need to make rifles independently) suggests the possibility the last deliveries were not moved far. Naturally no one knows where they ended up, - not even Albert Speer, who when asked about the program, - his greatest worry was not the circumstances of manufacture, but the waste of resources and the lack of clarity over disposition (where they went and to what purpose).

I was under the impression rifles were not assembled at Gusen and they only made parts while the rifles were assembled in Moln? Am I missing something?

No one knows the disposition of rifles made, they could have been dispersed widely or in large caches regionally and dispersed based upon need. There is very little on the subject of these contracts, what little is known is found in Holocaust books, typically very expensive books and the one I found most valuable was in German. It detailed the contracts broad terms and Army objections, but did not delve into tedious details (naturally, like all holocaust books they deal in sensationalized material, lacking even a semblance of objectivity) . Nothing on the actual assembly, disposition or when it ended. The latter we can roughly estimate by trends. All postwar studies offer less details, if they mention it at all... the two postwar studies were very vague on any details dealing the SS, naturally, SDP was eager to be on good terms with the Americans who advanced the policy of Austria as the first victim of National Socialism (which is laughable, - for one Germany was the first victim, second there was no shortage of Austrians eager to cooperate with the National Socialist movement, - while collective guilt is an absurd concept, individual guilt among the Austrians was as plentiful as the Germans, - and for that matter the French and Belgians politicians that made a Hitler possible in the first place) and a narrative of SDP complicity with the NS movement would have harmed the companies financial position.

Based on this statement I'm reading there were no huge (100s+) caches of rifles at a single location but rather 10s or dozens at many locations spread across the East.

 

[mrfarb]

As a data point - I can tell you that SS contract rifles certainly made it to SS depots, the SS double claw sniper rifles are a big clue to that point. While the actual location of the SSZZA2 facility is unknown (all double claw snipers are marked with SSZZA2), it almost certainly was NOT Gusen- in fact, owing to how other depots were numbered, it seems very clear to me it was at Dachau (I put some things I found in that regard in the book). To assemble sniper rifles into usable objects you really needed trained personnel and accurate base rifles. From what I saw, the majority of double claw snipers are made from SS contract and Single Rune rifles, with SSZZA4 rifles, byf43 and bcd43 rifles also used in lesser numbers (but not insignificant numbers)- I saw no bnz43 Army or bnz4 army rifles used, or any other manufacturer base rifle. If any other base rifle was used, I would expect it to have some type of SS-depot connection. So - in order for these rifles to be considered for conversion, they must have been in the depot where the sniper rifles were made. While the OKH was certainly not going to accept these SS contract rifles as usable, I'm doubting the SS had any compunction about their quality/usability - they used them for sniper rifle conversion!! This alone is a big clue of how the SS felt about them (circumstantial evidence for sure, but pretty solid).

Another issue is who did SS depot's issue rifles to in general? I am under the impression that the SS depots mostly equipped those units not specifically allowed to draw arms from OKH depots (another document in the book lays that out). Clothing/equipment was a different matter, it seems all SS troops were equipped with uniforms from SS depot.

Remember, the whole depot system was set up with a purpose - larger depots were collection points for equipment. Dachau, in general, was one of the larger depots, certainly the larges SS depot in southern German (Prague had a large depot as well) - it was also the location of one of the bigger small arms repair facilities for the SS, the SS-Waffenwerkstätt in Dachau. This mean lots of weapons were sent there for repair from 41-42 on when the SS-Werkstätt was finished and operational.

It may be an interesting project for someone to find out what was in German depots when captured by Allied troops. Certainly this information was relayed to the Allied command, it only makes sense to keep track of what material is at hand in enemy depots. There may even be photos of some depots. My feeling is Dachau would have been highly scrutinized by such accounting, so it must be somewhere.

 

[Loewe]

I find nothing to disagree with in post 176, the real question is not whether some SS contracts made it to front line units, some probably did early on, specialist rifles difficult to obtain through the Army most especially. Rather it is when these rifles were made, a determination that can only be arrived at by trends (serialing patterns, barrel codes etc..)

To my mind nearer the end of the SS contract, as the SS found ordnance supply less difficult, the tendency to use these rifles would decline. I suspect most early production found its way to Poland and Bohemia and Moravia protectorate. Probably dispersed to police units, etc.. but I really am suspect of any argument of late SS contracts going far. I would have to examine the database, to see how early vs. late compare in "use", but I suspect later production would be more common in upper grades. Further, it is very common for all the SS contract rifles to show far less wear than an Army equivalent. On top of that the survival rate is so high compared to Army trends... some of which Mike already mentioned earlier.

These non-standard rifles were not "superman" rifles (Waffen SS), they were relegated to the dregs of the SS, the miscreants found in every totalitarian regime. Or kept unused or briefly issued as the war closed in on the regime.

 

[mrfarb]

I agree with you Loewe - I personally think much of the later production went unused, and probably very little was used by the Waffen-SS. It's difficult for people to separate the Waffen-SS from the SS-FHA in regards to weapons issue. You might think, well, Waffen-SS were equipped with SS weapons. On the contrary, normally the Waffen-SS was equipped by the OKH via negotiations with the SS-FHA- the OKH doled out weapons based on TO&E tables I'm sure, not just on what the SS said, so probably not much area to siphon off rifles to fill SS depots. My own personal feeling is that SS hoarded all they could- that is just my feeling from reading about them. They were very protective of "their stuff" too it seems. Below is the document regarding weapons issue I'm taking about (a translation note the SS-Vefüngstruppe was changed to the Waffen-SS).

 

[mrfarb]

Another document in English about weapons and the SS.

 

[Loewe]

I entirely agree, they were very protective of their turf, - as in Poland and Bohemia-Moravia - Reichswerke bigshot Voss (technically the top bigshot at SDP while the Reichswerke owned them) had a terrible time with the SS at Skoda and Brno. As I recall they arrested him and or his wife for a short period of time for getting in the way.. the SS were neck deep in Brno's mismanagement and there is a really good book (detailed, but with a cheap thriller feel to the writing) on Voss's situation. They interfered in many experimental projects and as a consequence they went nowhere. I half suspect that the SS were behind the screw up with rifle production, the switching of rifles and MG production that is discussed in the BIOS/CIOS reports.

As Speer found out, it was dangerous to cross them, even before July 20, 1944.

They were very protective of "their stuff" too it seems.