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SS Contract and Single Rune serial study

...SS contract guns are not rare. In fact, I see more single rune and SS contract rifles than bnz4 and bnz43 rifles, or at least nearly an equal amount...

This is much truer than many realize. I have my rifles sorted by manufacturer. When someone asks about a particular year, manufacturer, and letter block, I end up sorting through rifles from that manufacturer to find a specific rifle. Whenever I go looking through my Steyr collection, I am always surprised by the fact that I have just about as many single rune and SS contract rifles as I have regular production rifles from the letter blocks (for the years 1943 and 1944). My collecting model is sponge-accumulator. I buy decent rifles as they become available. I don't expend too much effort looking for specific rifles. So, for me at least, the single rune and SS contract rifles are not rare.
 
I agree. Your standard bnz.4 marked army rifle is tougher to find that most think and absolutely harder to find than any ss contract.
 
Steyr rifles in Austria are not that rare, for obvious reasons. If these SS contract guns had been issued to SS-troops and KZ you will find enough there, since there have been enough KZs and the majority of SS-Divisions capitulated in Austria. I also tend to think that the majority of Steyr rifles went to Eastern front, so this may explain why they are more rare in America. You also find very many bek and bmj scopes in the US, but almost no dow scopes.

@ Mike Steves: I have of course also noted the database at the beginning of this thread. Well, you know better how much data you were provided with and can set that in correspondence with the production figures. At any rate the database is to me surprisingly small, taking into account that the biggest collectors worldwide took part in the project.
 
However, here you have one more. It is misnumbered a bit, being #5417, but some metal parts are misstamped 5411, with the stock being correctly stamped 5417. It has been found in Austria.
 

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No worries, research is always open ended. However, you have some incorrect assumptions. SS contract guns are not rare. In fact, I see more single rune and SS contract rifles than bnz4 and bnz43 rifles, or at least nearly an equal amount. I have many more serial numbers than those listed, the chart was pared down to fit the page in the book, with redundant numbers eliminated. I have more examples, even on the serial study here. Also, the early single rune rifles did not use parts made at Gusen, rather parts made at Radom that were in great supply from an established factory, the concentration camp made parts did not enter the production line until much later. I can assure you more than 10,000 of each type were made (I’m guessing you think there were 10,000 single rune and 10,000 SS contract types).


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Great info guys, it’s good to see all these points and ideas being discussed in the open so we can all see the points. Good stuff.

Let me pose this further question: how many times do people think that the SS contract serial numbers rolled over, since they used four digit numbers with no sub letters. Keeping this numbering practice in mind, it is entirely possible that a huge number were made, also keeping in mind that much of what went to the Russian front vanished forever.


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Steyr rifles in Austria are not that rare, for obvious reasons. If these SS contract guns had been issued to SS-troops and KZ you will find enough there, since there have been enough KZs and the majority of SS-Divisions capitulated in Austria. I also tend to think that the majority of Steyr rifles went to Eastern front, so this may explain why they are more rare in America. You also find very many bek and bmj scopes in the US, but almost no dow scopes.

@ Mike Steves: I have of course also noted the database at the beginning of this thread. Well, you know better how much data you were provided with and can set that in correspondence with the production figures. At any rate the database is to me surprisingly small, taking into account that the biggest collectors worldwide took part in the project.

I'm happy to finally find someone willing to discuss this - first, a valid observation, but I did not want to say Steyr rifles are rare, only that proportionally SS contract vs. Army contract are nearly equally seen. This listing of serial numbers is not complete - I stopped gathering numbers off and on during the research due to working on other chapters. To my knowledge, nobody has ever really dedicated themselves to collect as many serials as they could - my list was mostly guns that had matching components or barrel codes in order to study trends in manufacturing. I've stopped collecting just serial data for the list, it's useless without barrel codes (I've noted) so all I used only had the barrel codes. I could probably double the list if I put rifles where I only had the serial number - if you read the book you notice the importance of the barrel code in placing it on the list. Also, if you start to look, you will see (legit) single rune and SS contract rifles everywhere. I'm attaching a photo from the internet of a bnz4 rune captured in Vietnam - I never added it due to the lack of matching parts, but as an example of how far and wide you see these things.

I'd venture a guess that if you searched gunbroker once a month for the next year, you will find at least 1 unique single rune or SS contract rifle for sale every month. Usually, it's more than 1, sometimes I see up to 3 for sale. Most are not in collectible condition, but at least are legit (there are fakes).

As to issue of these rifles, I am going to tell you my personal feelings on this issue (which is why this isn't in the book, it's my feeling, not researched fact) - the SS contract rifles (rune and non-rune) were manufactured for the SS by Steyr, and were delivered to SS depots. The SS were stingy with weapons, hoarders if you will. The Waffen-SS divisions were generally equipped by the OKH, usually by the field army they were attached to using weapons sold to the OKH by the major K98k makers. The SS training divisions were NOT allowed to be equipped from army stores (see the SS chapter for these docs), so usually SS training divisions used what the SS depots had in them. I would venture a guess that most training was done with older rifles or foreign weapons, or those the SS could scrounge, to include possibly these type of rifles. Anyway, I feel that the majority of the SS contract and single rune rifles were captured in the SS depots, and personally I feel that a majority of the SS contract rifles found in US collections came from Dachau. All this is speculation, but if you start to delve into the SS depot system and recognize that the SS were hoarders you will start to envision the possibility that they held these in reserve instead of using them for training. That is perhaps the reason so many found are in nice condition.

One last item - the single rune rifle you posted is one of the very first manufactured. How do I know? The barrel code and firing proof - along with the fact that the bands are numbered, a trait of only the very first single rune rifles and the last of the SS contracts with Heer acceptance. Nice rifle too- the single rune trigger guards were some of the first parts used in the program, a feature that disappeared later on.

Edit - to prove my point about Gunbroker and legit rune/ss contract rifles being offered over the last few months ( this excludes one that was recently shown here that was for sale for too much money ):

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/733996418 - total mismatch, but a real SS contract

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/730102382 - appears to be a real single rune (bbl code is right range, no suffix)

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/707326069 - SS contract

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/701186238 - bnz43 single rune - mismatched and put together but real

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/715135647 - real SS contract, possibly fake rune

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/706259187 - real SS contract, possibly real single rune

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/728549736 - real single rune

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/727141139 - I think this may be a real bnz4 rune rifle, poor photos and no barrel code to confirm.
 

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Here's my BNZ 43 single rune for the forum. mismatched bolt, bands and floor plate, RC. I have a question. The stock is stamped #158, the bolt is electro penciled 158, but the serial number on the receiver looks like a 158 6 or 8? Or is that last stamp a letter?
 

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@MrFarb:

1. I also think that these rifle were produced for SS use alone. However, I do not agree on the theory that soldiers were trained on foreign guns while the k98 was put in depot. If the soldiers were being trained and not equipped by OKH, they would have been issued with the rifle they are to use in the field.
2. So, if the OKH did not provide weapons for training new ss-divisions it becomes clear now, where they went. As far as these were hoarded I do not know but do not adhere much to this, since I have not seen many of these rifles in storage condition, contrary to Steyr k98 of t-block, which were captured by American troops in the Steyr works.
3. The number of sold rifles on GB is impressive, even though the quality of them is mostly not worth collecting, AFAIK if they are overpainted, they are from Russian depots. You have mentioned in the book that the stamp deteriorated due to use in course of time. If the roll over numbering theory is correct there should be bnz 43 specimens with low SN showing a stamp with sign of high use.
4. Thank you for the comment on my k98. It had been picked up by a former WSS member who directly went home in 1945. It was lying around near his home near a retreat area. When he was 92 in 2014 he gave it to a friend of mine who sold it to me. I am not much into rifles, but an untouched Steyr rifle must be preserved.
 
@MrFarb:

1. I also think that these rifle were produced for SS use alone. However, I do not agree on the theory that soldiers were trained on foreign guns while the k98 was put in depot. If the soldiers were being trained and not equipped by OKH, they would have been issued with the rifle they are to use in the field.
2. So, if the OKH did not provide weapons for training new ss-divisions it becomes clear now, where they went. As far as these were hoarded I do not know but do not adhere much to this, since I have not seen many of these rifles in storage condition, contrary to Steyr k98 of t-block, which were captured by American troops in the Steyr works.
3. The number of sold rifles on GB is impressive, even though the quality of them is mostly not worth collecting, AFAIK if they are overpainted, they are from Russian depots. You have mentioned in the book that the stamp deteriorated due to use in course of time. If the roll over numbering theory is correct there should be bnz 43 specimens with low SN showing a stamp with sign of high use.
4. Thank you for the comment on my k98. It had been picked up by a former WSS member who directly went home in 1945. It was lying around near his home near a retreat area. When he was 92 in 2014 he gave it to a friend of mine who sold it to me. I am not much into rifles, but an untouched Steyr rifle must be preserved.

All very interesting points! If in fact the serial numbers did roll over several times, are there any ideas about how many times they did? For example how many serial number 5000’s are there on bnz43 marked receivers, and what are the characteristics that tell us from which series a particular rifle is from? (These questions are for anyone.)


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Anyway, I feel that the majority of the SS contract and single rune rifles were captured in the SS depots, and personally I feel that a majority of the SS contract rifles found in US collections came from Dachau.

Mike, can you elaborate on this? I am uncertain who occupied the camp the longest but I know the 45th and 42nd infantry divisions were there at liberation.
 
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/735463698

Another bnz43 single rune on Gunbroker - jacked up from polishing, but another real one. Anyway, haven't had time to answer some of the questions due to work so I'll give it a shot.

When I mentioned the use of foreign rifles for training, I meant VZ24 type rifles. Of course although it seems the SS was able to buy K98k rifles direct from the manufacturers (see attached document from Oct.1944 Mauser sales ledger) it wasn't commonplace for some reason (in fact I think this may be the only such entry seen in the Mauser Oberndorf ledgers). Perhaps due to the fact that all of the Mauser rifle production was specifically intended for the OKH and not to be siphoned off (Speer held tight controls over such things). This was the sole reason for the SS contract with Steyr, so the SS could have their own supply of new rifles unimpeded by Speer's office.

As collectors, we tend to believe that there was so much material being produced that it was no problem to take a dip in the well without anyone noticing. This doesn't seem to be the case - most factories had quotas to fill, and raw material shortages always put stress on the supply of materials used to produce enough product to fill the demanded quota. The actual K98k SS contract was a big deal, finding the raw materials alone would have been a huge deal, as those were tightly controlled down to the kg. Material waste was also a big problem, and it seems clear the SS concentration camp manufacturing system was a huge waste of materials in most cases (the SS were terrible at everything not related to killing people and breaking things). The difference was Steyr was a partner in the endeavor, which meant at least the materials might not be wasted. This may be the only reason the project was allowed - that's right, the SS didn't just do this without permission from the Office of the Minister for Armaments and Ammunition. Speer trusted Industry leaders, and probably begrudgingly allowed cooperation with the SS because it met the end game. I don't pretend to be a scholar on Speer and his thinking, just what I gleaned from cramming for this book.

I'll expand a bit on why I think many of the SS contract guns were from Dachau - I mean guns found in the US, not those that are found in Europe or as Russian Captures. One interesting thing I found while doing to the book - SS double claw sniper rifles. If you look, many of the SS double claw rifles found were made from SS contract or single rune rifles. Also, lots of byf43 rifles in the c-e blocks used, along with bcd43 rifles. These were the rifles found in the depot that were pulled to make the snipers - if you have the book, in my opinion the document on P.732 explains the appearance of large numbers of byf43/bcd43 rifles in the depot (note that this document specifically says 17,000 K98k rifles were to be transferred to the SS from July/August production, the document was from June - this would probably be about the time a byf43 c-d block would hit the Army depot system, where the rifles would have been transferred from). Anyway, this shows that the SS depots were not full of just every maker 98k - mostly I think because they didn't regularly get 98k's from Army production for their depot. The field army (Waffen-SS) did get them from Army depots, which would allow some to get into the system. Anyway, Dachau was the largest of all the SS depots, so it would have been full of material, which I think would have been looted completely by US forces. So - by default, a large number of them would have come from Dachau to the US.

It must be remembered that the SS was NOT equal to the Heer or Luftwaffe in getting material from the OKH. The SS was a separate organization, outside of the main armed forces, even in 1944. The subject of SS rifles is not an easy thing to understand, even reading my chapter on them is just a scrape on the surface. I have many more thoughts about the subject that I didn't put into print, as some is speculation or just a "feeling". I tried to just use facts or solid evidence in there.

When the SS contract started, most of the rifles were assembled using Radom components. I have a feeling that if Speer knew Waffenamt accepted parts were being siphoned off to make the SS guns, he would have been furious. But, as all things concentration camp, the slow start made it necessary that Radom parts were used to start fulfilling the contract for "delivery of 10,000 pc. per month of K98k" (from the original document on P.734). The contract was for that - 10,000 rifles per month: "The SS-FHA manufactures 10,000 K98k in their own workshops under the supervision of Steyr". At the time that document was written (June 1943) I think the work was ready to start or even underway. So the idea that only 10,000 or 20,000 rifles were assembled by Steyr for the SS in 15-16 months is way under what Steyr was capable of. My production estimate of 65,000 in 43 (approx 7 months) and 85,000 in 44 (approx 9 months) is probably pretty close, give or take 10,000 for the bombing and startup. For startup, the process was probably instantaneous - Steyr just started assembling parts they already had in the pipeline from Radom, assembled in the main plant at Steyr. I'd guess they increased the output of Radom to make up for the siphoned off parts, after all they had some influence over production there. So the idea that "camp assembly" would slow the process is wrong, the camps only made parts, which were taken from Radom production at first until the production at Gusen caught up- but guess what, it took nearly 6 months before any appreciable supply of parts came from there, something you would fully expect from such a thing.

The subject of SS rifles may be a great topic at the SOS forum meeting.
 

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Do you feel that the rc ss rifles were captured on the battlefield or liberated from various concentration camps?
 
I'm not Mike but I feel like it's got to be a mix. Many Waffen SS units either capitulated or were destroyed on the Eastern Front so it makes sense there'd be many to pick up.
 
Do you feel that the rc ss rifles were captured on the battlefield or liberated from various concentration camps?

I agree with Heavy, I think it would be a mix. I'd say most of the 98k rifles sent east were used to some degree? I doubt many were captured in concentration camps, it wasn't really a place for rifles. Dachua, while it was a concentration camp, was much more - I'd say the camp was a minor part of the complex, the depot was the big deal there along with the SS schools and administrative things. Oranienburg was much the same way.

My feeling that the SS-FHA were hoarders, hoarding weapons and equipment for the reason hoarders do such things. I've never read accounts of the Dachau liberation that deal with how much material was at hand when it was liberated, maybe someone else has? I'm open to being wrong about my thoughts on it but I have a feeling I'm right. Most stories focus on the human aspect, rightfully so.
 
A collector friend of mine does have an SS rifle that was liberated from Dachau. Still in the shipping box that it was sent home with wrapped in newspaper. As of now it's still completely in parts and still greasy the way it was packed. I'll try to talk to him about getting the serial number on it maybe that may help something in the information department.
 

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