SS Contract and Single Rune serial study

[CanadianAR]

Hello,

to me a K98 BNZ43 with serial on receiver and fire proof present with NO top proof is just a BNZ43 NO LETTER block rifle. NOT a SS rifle, But I don't know everything either.

later
vaughn

I think the characteristics make it an SS rifle.

 

[mdarnell19]

+1. This is a SS contract rifle.

 

[Southforkroad]

From the pictures provided it appears to be an SS contract. Was this a Canadian find?

I purchased the rifle from an individual in Virginia. Using an FFL to import rifle into Canada.
The rifle has no markings on stock, as well as no markings on bands. I've attached a few more pictures.
Thank you for your time
Cheers
Chris

 

[Southforkroad]

Forgot to mention.
It's a vet bring back with a duffle cut.

 

[Slowburn]

I remember that one. Definitely a contract gun. The duffle repair is pretty visible but otherwise it's a really nice rifle.

 

[Southforkroad]

I remember that one. Definitely a contract gun. The duffle repair is pretty visible but otherwise it's a really nice rifle.

Thank you for clarification.
So, what is main difference between contract rifle and rifles with runes?
What type of value would you place on this rifle?
Chris

 

[Thomasreef]

Hi, can you help me to identify this weapon? Thank you: Thomas of Hungary

 

[Thomasreef]

Even more pictures.

 

[Loewe]

This rifle is out of place in this thread, it isn't an SS contract or an SS ordnance build, - rather it is a rather typical bnz/41. The SS contracts were not even negotiated before the Spring of 1943, so no bnz/41 will be a SS rifle, at least unless it passed through an SS ordnance depot during the war.

Anyway, the rifle you have looks like it has a walnut stock, and it is in the range of the KM (navy) deliveries, - very often bnz/41 rifles with walnut stocks were delivered to the KM (navy), not always, but most bnz/41 with walnut stocks seem to have gone to the KM. This rifle is at the tail end of KM ranges though, so it could be an Army (Heer) rifle. You should do better pictures of the stock to confirm whether it is walnut and whether it has KM branch of service acceptance (eagle/M). In the United States a well worn but matching bnz/41 would be desirable, if it is KM it would be worth even more. Condition would matter a great deal and these pictures it is difficult to say how worn it is, but still a pretty desirable maker-date.

Back off the close ups a little and do more pictures, including the barrel code if you have it.

 

[Thomasreef]

Thank you for your reply, tomorrow I will take pictures.

 

[Thomasreef]

Here are the promised pictures.

 

[Loewe]

Thanks for doing more photographs, you neglected to do one of the right side of the buttstock, there should be an "eagle" over a letter, either eagle/H or eagle/M, though it could be obscured or worn away. Try to examine the area closely and see if you can see the remnants of a small "H" or small "M" (typically the eagle will be very small, but the letter generally larger), this branch of service acceptance will be above two Eagle/WaA623 acceptance stamps (generally they are easily noticeable, in this case, because they have escaped your detailed attention, they are probably very worn). Perhaps someone with the new volumes IIa or IIb can post a photograph of the relevant page that illustrate what I am speaking about.

The barrel was made at Steyr, Austria, from a raw forging from Poland (RD= Radom, a raw forging or barrel blank left over when the factory was captured and subsequently sent to Steyr for finishing. So Polish steel, finished in Austria, very common in 1941 production)

Altogether the rifle looks pretty original, other than the deactivation, the stock looks to have SDP shallow cutout and the internal serialing compares well with other bnz/41 in this range, - the only interesting thing I noticed was the "circled V/1" on the bottom receiver flat, I will have to review my database and see if i can find other examples. This closely resembles the "circled V/7" found on 1943-1945 Gusen made receivers, though I do not think there is necessarily a connection. Perhaps SDP use of a "circled V/#" carried over to the operation at Gusen and i never noticed it before, or it could be unrelated altogether... If I find something on this i will add my observations to this thread.

 

[Thomasreef]

Thank you very much for helping me out!

 

[jimdvan]

I don't know if you're still looking for info but thought I'd include this one. I received it in the mail today from Bigdibbs88. I couldn't see where Rob sent you any info on it.

Big bnz43
Serial number 926 on barrel, bolt root, floor plate, rear sight leaf, sight ramp, and sporterized stock. Stock is marked in barrel channel 926 and e/?
Oval gas escape holes in bolt
No firing proof on bolt, barrel or receiver
Circle V7 on front and rear right receiver body
Barrel code- DS dou. e/A80 x 2
e/77 sear
early e/63 cocking piece, serial numbered 120
e/655 firing pin, serial number 8553
unmarked safety
can't read stamp on gas shield, looks Imperial like a Franktur followed by an R
Follower lxr
Trigger guard and floor plate marked e/135
Bolt marked 4 on underside of root

Rob put the gun in a Steyr stock and hand guard that is serial numbered 1217 inside in large Steyr font. Matching bands, e/77 bayonet lug. However, the stock has no inspection stamps what-so-ever. "3" stamped in right side sling cut-out, "Kr" followed by "2" in the barrel channel. Possibly an SS Contract rifle stock?

 

[mrfarb]

Thanks, I'll be collecting info and adding it as time permits, the last of this story has not been written I'm sure. The learning never stops, or shouldn't.

 

[M1903A3]

Just did this for comparison purposes, quality is poor but makes examining both V1 and V7 easy.

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[Nigromontanus]

Maybe I have failed to read the information in the book fully, but I conclude that the total of SS bnz rifles is about 20000. Is that right?

 

[mrfarb]

No, there are probably 150,000, maybe more. Check the Steyr production charts.


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[Nigromontanus]

I found the sheet, thank you. However, I do not think that such a high output is likely:

1. Between 1942 and 1943 there has been an almost double increase in production.
2. If KZ-production started in middle 1943 and output was 65000 the efficiency was the same as "normal" Steyr production in 1942. This is not likely. The contrary is usually the case. Doing specialized work by untrained workers results in slow production and little output. Do not forget that Steyr also had to produce the MP44 as well.
3. Since I do much datamining myself I must state that if there had been 150000 produced you should have much more specimens, this after the best collectors came together and shared the data they had accrued in decades. Just a comparison: I have singlehandedly collected in my database roughly 120 confirmed Ajack SS-Dienstgläser of a total of about 3500 made. You have less serial numbers after having the best collectors worldwide providing you with data for years. So my simple conclusion is: If there were being made so many you should have received much more data. With so many made a double number should have emerged. Since it did not and since the SS-contract guns are still very rare, the figure cannot be so high.
4. I do not consider it likely that they would have simply started anew after #10000 with #1 again. Such a procedure would have resulted that if there are problems with specimens the time of production would not be ascertainable.
5. So, since you have about as many SNs as there are known FGs by SN (of 7000) I cannot resist to take that the figure of 20000 total might be correct.

I know that this is not received with a warm welcome. I am sorry for that. I hasten to add that I am deeply grateful for the pioneer work you all did.

 

[mrfarb]

No worries, research is always open ended. However, you have some incorrect assumptions. SS contract guns are not rare. In fact, I see more single rune and SS contract rifles than bnz4 and bnz43 rifles, or at least nearly an equal amount. I have many more serial numbers than those listed, the chart was pared down to fit the page in the book, with redundant numbers eliminated. I have more examples, even on the serial study here. Also, the early single rune rifles did not use parts made at Gusen, rather parts made at Radom that were in great supply from an established factory, the concentration camp made parts did not enter the production line until much later. I can assure you more than 10,000 of each type were made (I’m guessing you think there were 10,000 single rune and 10,000 SS contract types).


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