Questionable Camos

[mcorioles]

M1935 Heer Wire Camouflaged/Field Overpaint German Helmet

http://ww2germanhelmets.com/M1935-Heer-German-Helmet-2954.html

This is just simply a WWII helmet oozing character! This is an original M1935 Heer Overpainted/Wire Camouflaged German helmet. This Heer German helmet retains around 90%+ of the war time applied rough texture over-paint. The over-paint appears to have a mixture of sand or sawdust and looks terrific. There is mud mixed in along with remnants of winter whitewash. There is period wire on the helmet as well. The Split pin rivets are fully intact and are clearly original to the helmet. This German helmet retains its original steel banded M1931 liner. The band size 56. The liner leather is in good overall condition and the original drawstring is present. The drawstring does exhibit some fraying. The original chinstrap is present and is in good condition. The helmet is an early ET64 indicating manufacture by the Eisenhuttenwerke firm in Thale, Germany. The lot number is 3244. The rear skirt is named to German soldier "Schüßler". Overall, this is one high on the charts for display qualities! As with all our WWII German helmets, this M1935 Heer German helmet comes with our Lifetime Guarantee and Certificate of Authenticity.

$2,250.00 Item #2954

At first glance, an old beat up reissue with some wire. Upon closer examination it falls into the same category as those 'reissues' in post# 1111. While the color looks to be a green/gray or slate gray typical depot reissue color, the heavy texture is not associated with depot reissues but with field modified helmets (camos). So is this helmet a depot reissue, a woodchip camo, a snow camo, a mud camo, or a wire camo ?? Or all of the above ?? Amazingly, this helmet has all of those elements in addition to a nice painted name.

The zoom shot shows pristine conditioned material (and a beat up rusted old wire) with the applicator apparently avoiding the rim. With snow mud and wire, you would think the helmet had been many places and seen much action - but the paint condition is pristine. How does that happen, Nzef1940 ?



I suppose my point is that these so-called 'reissues' (as opposed to factory finishes or field camos) are being replicated as others have been.

The primary mistake that the 'artists' are making IMO is that the reissue colors (green/gray, slate gray, and luft blue/gray) applied by reissue depots were used either with no texture or with texture not dissimilar to factory texture (as per surviving examples). The 'reissues' below, while using reissue colors, show heavy anti-glare elements (woodchips, concrete, etc...) seen on field modified helmets, not depot reissues. So while the heavy anti-glare elements in the paint fit a field modified scenario, the reissue colors do not. My understanding is that depot reissue paint and factory paint was generally not available to soldiers in the field.

Those are just the 'theoretical' problems I have with the helmets listed. Practical problems exist with unnatural wear.

I bought this helmet,100% legit.I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "pristine conditioned material" it has a fantastic patina and a very common mixture of wood chips,mud,paint.

The "evidence" you provide is your personal opinion.

Maybe it's the pics?I liked it straight away from the pics.Ive narrowed my focus to Helmets with attachments,wires,straps,nets,etc and a few camos.

I see nothing wrong with this lid.

 

[M45]

GHW2 Norway camo, but not everyone is on board with it.

A great camo for Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory - someone could use it to hide behind his bright green bubblegum trees and wine flavored sucker bushes.



I personally like this lid. Of interest there is an interesting thread over on the K98 forum about 'questionable camo's'. It started off well, however many babies are now being thrown out with the bath water and the one thread organ grinder has many new monkeys.... NZEF1940

 

[M45]

I bought this helmet,100% legit.I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "pristine conditioned material" it has a fantastic patina and a very common mixture of wood chips,mud,paint.

The "evidence" you provide is your personal opinion.

Maybe it's the pics?I liked it straight away from the pics.Ive narrowed my focus to Helmets with attachments,wires,straps,nets,etc and a few camos.

I see nothing wrong with this lid.

Yes, it is my personal opinion, but a valid one I think. Consider just what we have here. The snow camo indicates winter fighting, the mud camo represents spring/fall fighting, the wire to attach foliage represents summer fighting. This helmet has evidence of being in combat for some time, at least an entire year and probably longer. But look closely at the paint texture and tell me if you can see the variety of combat wear to paint typically seen on German combat helmets. Chips, scrapes, dings, rub marks, scratches, dark rust patina, etc...

 

[Niblet]

GHW2 Norway camo, but not everyone is on board with it.

A great camo for Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory - someone could use it to hid behind his bright green bubblegum trees and wine flavored sucker bushes.

looks like Randywrap has consumed too much GHW Kool-aid

 

[mauser99]

GHW2 Norway camo, but not everyone is on board with it.

A great camo for Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory - someone could use it to hid behind his bright green bubblegum trees and wine flavored sucker bushes.

I think this is an Eric Doland special. Im 99.9% sure this is the one he had on facebook for sale. Its a horrible looking fake camo IMHO.

 

[mcorioles]

Yes, it is my personal opinion, but a valid one I think. Consider just what we have here. The snow camo indicates winter fighting, the mud camo represents spring/fall fighting, the wire to attach foliage represents summer fighting. This helmet has evidence of being in combat for some time, at least an entire year and probably longer. But look closely at the paint texture and tell me if you can see the variety of combat wear to paint typically seen on German combat helmets. Chips, scrapes, dings, rub marks, scratches, dark rust patina, etc...

I'll post some pics.

BTW I'm not sure that's Winter Camo,could be some kind of oxidation.Hard to describe.

I'll take macro shots. Even from his pics you can see the rear of the helmet has the typical worn down sharp edges of where the woodchips are and also a nice patina.

The wire where it is bent under the lid is old,no shiny bends or where it was cut.

If anything it's one of the most salty no doubters I've owned IMO.

 

[Eurofighter]

Its a horrible looking fake camo IMHO.

I absolutely agree and cannot understand why so many people are confirming its originality.
Proves to me that if you are a respected member and have written a book, everyone is your 'mate' and one can post almost anything as 'original. There are also too many people who are afraid to add negative comments in fear of offending the owner, or being made to feel stupid.

I am an inexperienced camo helmet collector, but am trying to learn. I am constantly looking at helmets and have learned much from people on GHW and from here. To me, this helmet highlights most of the basic pointers of a faked camo that I have so far learned, yet experienced collectors are praising this horrible thing as original WW2 camo. I feel both disappointed and really disillusioned.

EF

 

[Hambone]

People are free to have their honestly held opinions. Part of that includes the choice of muses or sources of information they deem credible. We respect that here and the value of open discussion and debate. GWH2 is allowing the debate on that helmet and others and deserves credit and support for that. While I may not agree with certain opinions on that helmet, and I consider myself more than a novice helmet collector, I don't have all the answers and am not right all the time. That's what open discussion and debate is for.

 

[Niblet]

FaceBook Daily Special

This one guys is thinks he's got a bunch of special Lids,,,well I guess maybe he does
the phoney paint job is obvious even to my my limited abilities

 

[Niblet]

more of the same

 

[Spoof]

This one guys is thinks he's got a bunch of special Lids,,,well I guess maybe he does
the phoney paint job is obvious even to my my limited abilities

Tim
I don't understand what you are trying to convey?

 

[Niblet]

it means some guy keeps posting these "questionable camos" from his collection however he's convinced
they are 100% legitimate....

 

[NathanLM]

Who's camos are these?

 

[M45]

German helmet m42 ef66 normandy stahlhelm ww2

GERMAN HELMET M42 EF66 NORMANDY STAHLHELM WW2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GERMAN-HELM...017779?hash=item282e45cb33:g:pHUAAOSw2gxYx69Q

ORIGINAL GERMAN HELMET (SHELL) M42 SIZE EF 66 IN PERFECT CONDITION.
CAMO COLOR,LINER AND CHINSTRAP ARE PROFESSIONALLY RESTORED REPRODUCTION.

ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE ASK.

A dealer from the Czech Republic.
Price:
US $375.00
Buy It Now

A 3-color camo repro using an original shell. Not bad when compared to other questionable camos vetted on forums. Slap authentic components into this and you have a $3750 helmet.

 

[M45]

H-284d

WWII German Model 1940 Wehrmacht Single Decal Camouflage

https://therupturedduck.com/collect...-model-1940-wehrmacht-single-decal-camouflage

Sale
$ 2,150.00 Regular price $ 2,475.00

Here is a very unique camouflage helmet that has lots of eye appeal. The camouflage finish is very rough and features brown blotches over a forest green base. The inside of the skirt is black. The upper dome is the original combat field grey so this is an army helmet most likely. The decal is completely covered. The interior has an excellent brown leather liner that is size stamped 58 and named to "Kraüs". The zinc liner band is maker marked, dated 1942 and size stamped 66/58. The side of the interior is stamped ET 66 indicating that this was produced by Eisenhuttenwerke of Thale in the size of 66. The rear skirt is stamped with the steel lot number 351 indicating production in 1941. There is an early chinstrap with aluminum fitting that is dated 1936. A great helmet!

I see an original green/gray reissue with good wear underneath what appears to be a more recent coating of rust-red and green colored woodchip coating.

 

[Niblet]

How can this be? Bill Shea has 40 yrs in the business! doesnt he know a phoney when he sees it? (perhaps he does)
I thought he was the darling of the collector world

 

[M45]

Niblet, so what did you say you were doing for the last 8 years ? Questionable camos being sold on dealer's sites, while at one time a rare event with dealers being informed what was wrong with their kamoz so they could remove them, has now become commonplace.

There are probably a number of reasons for this. One reason might be the simple economic rule of supply and demand. The demand for exotic camos has not gone away over the years but has increased with more collectors getting into the hobby and not enough originals to go around. Collectors around the world with money burning holes in the pockets are more likely to purchase these things, not the least because fake camos have come miles away from what they were in the early '70s when an acquaintance of mine was painting up clumsy fakes using Norwegian reworks as the base - and selling them for top collectors prices.

You also have the phenomena of dealers selling helmets and authors authenticating them being merged into a situation where authors who are also dealers selling the helmets they have authenticated. This becomes a rather sticky situation (and not just due to the fresh tacky paint) because it becomes something similar to the separation of powers observed by the U.S. Government. There are certain checks and balances in place to protect Americans, but with the hobby, authors authenticating the helmets they sell becomes the murky morass we have seen with the C-SS debacle. Suspicious helmets are authentic because authors SAY THEY ARE AUTHENTIC.

With the advent of the Internet we have forum owners/mods who are friends with helmet dealers creating a situation where dealers can peddle suspicious helmets with forum blessings. Members can be urged to vet certain dealer helmets to give the impression to prospective buyers that the helmets are 100% 'textbook', top-shelf, dream helmets, etc... Forum admins/mods as such have the power to exert pressure on dissenters to conform - once again seen with C-SS.

The nature of the German combat helmet in the collecting world is unique in the arena of collectible hobbies in general due to the vast majority of the 25 million produced being lost on the Eastern Front (melted down or buried) and a sizeable portion of those Western Front helmets being taken home as war booty by US forces. Most of those left in Western Europe were reworked for postwar police/mililary forces. The result was the relative dearth of original German helmets left in Europe to collect. The great hunger for camos and such in Europe has spawned a vast creation of fakes from there that has reached our shores.

 

[Niblet]

I was being facetious, Bill Shea is often revered and praised for being such an honest guy,,but yet like all the other dealers
that make their living off of Militaria, I ask myself how,,,,,how can he (and the others) have pages and pages full of "new" stuff every month??

I purchased a helmet from Ken N last yr and I asked him where it originated, ( not that it mattered I guess) and he
admitted to me that 99% of his stock comes from other collectors,,actual woodwork finds are few and far between.

What you say is 100 percent correct M45,,

 

[mauser99]

most helmet dealers are like car dealers . They take trade in trades and make more off the trades than they do selling new items . Or consignments This is just nature of the beast. I met both Ken's @ Allentown. They are there to pick just like the rest. I'm sure they run adds locally and country wide. This is how you find stuff yourself. They are no different than anyone else.

There are a lot of blurred lines when it comes to camo's and camo's aren't the place to be for the novice or faint of heart collector.

I have 4 camo's in my collection the rest are straight up decaled helmets.

 

[Hambone]

How can this be? Bill Shea has 40 yrs in the business! doesnt he know a phoney when he sees it? (perhaps he does)
I thought he was the darling of the collector world

I like Bill Shea and he's a good dealer. He honors his policies and guarantees. This is not the hobby for folks to get into if they don't want to do their homework and are risk averse. There are no true guarantees of originality, only guarantees of products and refunds if something is not original. The dealers who stand behind the latter are A-OK in my book, and Bill Shea is one of those and A-OK in my book. Let this confirm that I can probably count on two hands how many transactions I've had with him in my life, so I have no reason to have my opinions influenced by anything other than my observations of the last 30 years of his practices.

There is not a single dealer or long time collector involved in trading and selling who has not sold a fake. The two issues for me are 1) are they doing it intentionally? and 2) do they guarantee their wares for originality and refund?