Questionable Camos

[M45]

This is a Kelly Hicks forward to the book "Combat Helmets of the Third Reich Vol.II Heer and Luftwaffe" by Thomas Kibler and Robert Iqbal.

"Helmet fakers, in the name of easy money, are killing the helmet collecting hobby. This situation has become so prolific as to set market trends in Europe and to a lesser extent, the USA. In Europe, the Czech and Italian counterfeiters have created a supply of counterfeit helmets that have taken on an 'authenticity' all their own within European markets."

Well put, IMO. Counterfeit helmets could be likened to counterfeit money. People have faith in a monetary system and it sustains itself well, but introduce a huge amount of counterfeit currency into the system and widespread doubt will begin to permeate it. The doubt will gradually grow until one day the faith necessary to uphold the system is no longer there and the system collapses.

Faith in German helmet collecting, once rock-solid, has suffered not just because of general TR collecting fakery but because of the high profile C-SS deception and the flood of obvious fake camos that are vetted on forums today. Of course every type of TR helmet is faked not just SS and camos. Once a sufficient number of collectors realize they have been burned and swear never to return to the hobby, and the crop of new collectors think twice about entering into a minefield without a mine detector, faith in the hobby could ebb so low that big shows like the SOS will be comprised of dealers looking at one another across tables full of high priced fakes but no customers to buy them.

 

[Niblet]

FaceBook Daily Special

This guy swears up and down this is a period item,,said he would guarantee it
https://fjm44.com/product/stunning-woodwork-find-tan-ef66-camouflage-helmet/

he says there's hint of a "somewhat golden decal " poking through, indicating it could be Kriegsmarine! (oh my)
as an added bonus the helmet was a winter camo at one point as well! so this helmet saw action all over the place
it can be yours for 2350 euros Copyright FJM44 2017

Sean Greene It's a nice camo and a real one. Doesn't need to go on WAF to prove that.

I see contrived wear,,a crappy liner with a freshly installed string,,,a low cost example humped up to make a 2350 Euro fantasy item

 

[Warrior1354]

I just love the paint run off on that helmet makes it so much more special.

 

[mcorioles]

How can this be? Bill Shea has 40 yrs in the business! doesnt he know a phoney when he sees it? (perhaps he does)
I thought he was the darling of the collector world

Who says that? At least on WAF and GHW he's gotten his fair share of criticism.

 

[Niblet]

I just get the opinion from forums that super dealers like him can do no wrong,,when they get caught with a fake,,
they just say,,"I cant be an expert in everything,,my apologies,,let me give you your money back"

 

[mcorioles]

I just get the opinion from forums that super dealers like him can do no wrong,,when they get caught with a fake,,
they just say,,"I cant be an expert in everything,,my apologies,,let me give you your money back"

Ok.I bought a dud from him once.E Mailed him back and said I didn't like it in hand.Said ok and got my money back.

I do agree he's got some that should be rather obvious that they are messed with.

 

[Niblet]

Thats good he gave you your money back,,but what if you had waited 3 yrs??

 

[M45]

I like Bill Shea and he's a good dealer. He honors his policies and guarantees. This is not the hobby for folks to get into if they don't want to do their homework and are risk averse. There are no true guarantees of originality, only guarantees of products and refunds if something is not original. The dealers who stand behind the latter are A-OK in my book, and Bill Shea is one of those and A-OK in my book. Let this confirm that I can probably count on two hands how many transactions I've had with him in my life, so I have no reason to have my opinions influenced by anything other than my observations of the last 30 years of his practices.

There is not a single dealer or long time collector involved in trading and selling who has not sold a fake. The two issues for me are 1) are they doing it intentionally? and 2) do they guarantee their wares for originality and refund?

I would recommend carefully reading the guarantee. If it says guaranteed to be 100% original Third Reich production, that is up for debate. The seller can simply claim that in his opinion the item IS original and refuse a refund. Then what are you going to do about it, take him to court ??

You might want to look for the statement declaring 100% SATISFACTION guaranteed or your money back (minus shipping of course). Then if you are not satisfied you can return the item within the inpection period. If you find out 2-3 years later that the item is not original, I think you are stuck with it - well past the inspection window for a refund.

I suppose a third option is to get the h&ll out of camo collecting altogether. Too many people out to screw you, some with amateur abilities, others with highly professional abilities.

The interesting journey called camo collecting was very pleasant at one time. But now there are unscrupulous people placing minefields in your path at every opportunity. It kind of takes the fun out it, especially when you hit a mine.

 

[Niblet]

I would recommend carefully reading the guarantee. If it says guaranteed to be 100% original Third Reich production, that is up for debate. The seller can simply claim that in his opinion the item IS original and refuse a refund. Then what are you going to do about it, take him to court ??

You might want to look for the statement declaring 100% SATISFACTION guaranteed or your money back (minus shipping of course). Then if you are not satisfied you can return the item within the inpection period. If you find out 2-3 years later that the item is not original, I think you are stuck with it - well past the inspection window for a refund.

I suppose a third option is to get the h&ll out of camo collecting altogether. Too many people out to screw you, some with amateur abilities, others with highly professional abilities.

The interesting journey called camo collecting was very pleasant at one time. But now there are unscrupulous people placing minefields in your path at every opportunity. It kind of takes the fun out it, especially when you hit a mine.

yes that is a very good explanation,,,my COA's from Dave say "0riginal WWII period",,so I guess that would be a matter for debate his word against mine so to speak

 

[M45]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/54568-andy-wanted-to-see-some-green-on-st-pats-day/

GHW2 Ron R. camo. A questionable camo, IMO. An exotic pattern with striking contrasts (as opposed to the bland splotches here and there that is unassuming), near 100% coverage despite heavily worn components, a nice bright painted name. Probably a low $$$ ND reissue with shot liner that became a good choice for a restoration. Low $$$ to high $$$ is the name of the game.

 

[M45]

http://www.italianwarfront.com/?page_id=20253

German M-35 tan / green camouflage ........... description coming soon............$3,000

Tan and green spraypaint in conjunction with a reissue finish. Micro-spatter. The paint drips are a nice touch.

 

[M45]

http://helmetsofwar.com/2017/03/32578/

M42 EF66 STRIKINGLY VIVID NORMANDY CAMO

Well here’s one of the nicest Normandy camo helmets I’ve ever come across. Not because it has nice bold looping brush strokes like some of the other super hero class helmets but because of the bright and bold colors used by the original soldier. It’s not quite orange and green more of a tan orange base with lime green splotches almost sloppily added. It is a nice large size EF66 and has it’s original liner untouched and original chinstrap also unmoved or untouched. The chinstrap has the early war aluminum buckle and is neatly tucked in between the inside of the shell and outer liner band and has so much dust build up that it most likely has been placed there many many decades ago and so will stay in place while I have it here. The inside paint is obviously either dark feld grau or dark blue gray if I could figure that one out I could tell you if this was Luftwaffe or Heer but I really can’t as the color is just too dark for these eyes. I also can’t really make out any decal underneath the camo paint most likely because it went on there a little bit too thick which would also let me know which branch of service this helmet was originally issued to. I sent it off to my personal gura and Yoda of the hobby Kelly Hicks and he is currently making out an official COA on it for me which will be included once sold. Right now it has a proud place on my helmet shelf and I don’t mind just keeping this one as I doubt anything this bold or vivid will ever come my way again!

$3250

 

[Niblet]

M45- How dare you say that RonR may have a stinker in his collection! oh my! say it isn't so!
if you even whispered that on GHW2 they would nuke your account!

I don't know RonR I'm sure he's a helluva guy and all,,but he's pretty crafty IMHO he's obviously quite wealthy
and likes to post his items all over the place (nothing wrong with that) but after he's gone his collection will be liquidated
and then you will see things like "fromt the RonR collection" so its gotta be real right?

it seems like if your wealthy and post lots of high end items you develop a cult like following on the various forums,,
and then you can do no wrong

 

[capt14k]

Two points brought up in the last couple posts.

If anything ends up with enough fakes it will cause the bottom to fall out. Even for the ones that are real. Camo helmets based on this thread I believe does qualify. I for one would certainly not start buying them. No new collectors entering + long time Collectors leaving x entire collections being sold off = not enough buyers and too much supply = drop in prices.

What this forum has done for the K98k is desperately needed in other areas of collecting. Camo Helmets and Finnish Rifles are two that come to mind. This thread seems to be a good start for camo helmets, but have any of the big dealers / collectors chimed in? If not it will not have the effect needed.

As for a dealer that sells something that is fake. If he gives money back in full including shipping both ways and then relists the item as a possible fake no one should hold that against them. The grey blanket comes to mind. He does give a full refund with shipping both ways. This is how he maintains his top seller rating on eBay and GunBroker. However I have seen the same item relisted by him with no change in the description. That is a serious problem. If a dealer give a COA that COA should be good for life and come with a money back refund to whoever the owner is for what they last sold it for.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[nirvana]

Capt14k,
What's the issue with Finnish rifles? I know there are fake SA stamps out there now, despite what those on gunboards say. Is there something else up?

 

[M45]

M45- How dare you say that RonR may have a stinker in his collection! oh my! say it isn't so!
if you even whispered that on GHW2 they would nuke your account!

Why to you think I posted it here and not on GHW2 ? Ron has a fantastic collection, but some of his camos are questionable. These things are seemingly everywhere - in high end collections, vetted on forums, for sale by dealers, and in print as authentic. If a guy like Ron R. who owns 100's of helmets and has probably seen 1000's more in his career can be fooled, anyone can.

 

[capt14k]

Capt14k,
What's the issue with Finnish rifles? I know there are fake SA stamps out there now, despite what those on gunboards say. Is there something else up?

I'm seeing more and more that are stock swapped, refinished, re-blued, rebuilt, etc. That's in addition to the fake SA Stamps the "experts" refuse to recognize as a problem. Very few of the M/39s being traded are as they left Finland and even fewer are as they left service. I've built them myself. I'm always honest about it and I post on RMNF so there is a record of it, but I am in the minority.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Hambone]

M45- How dare you say that RonR may have a stinker in his collection! oh my! say it isn't so!
if you even whispered that on GHW2 they would nuke your account!

I don't know RonR I'm sure he's a helluva guy and all,,but he's pretty crafty IMHO he's obviously quite wealthy
and likes to post his items all over the place (nothing wrong with that) but after he's gone his collection will be liquidated
and then you will see things like "fromt the RonR collection" so its gotta be real right?

it seems like if your wealthy and post lots of high end items you develop a cult like following on the various forums,,
and then you can do no wrong

He seems like a nice man and a gentleman who generously posts his collection for us to review. He has some excellent and interesting items. No one with any size collection of helmets is going to have pieces which are not questionable to some. I do. I don't think criticism of him is merited.

 

[Hambone]

I'm seeing more and more that are stock swapped, refinished, re-blued, rebuilt, etc. That's in addition to the fake SA Stamps the "experts" refuse to recognize as a problem. Very few of the M/39s being traded are as they left Finland and even fewer are as they left service. I've built them myself. I'm always honest about it and I post on RMNF so there is a record of it, but I am in the minority.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

The level of intentional ignorance over such things at Gunboards is disturbing. They will end up with a hobby where "collecting" will be by weight. I was actually flamed by that klown-mod "USMCSean" for posting pics of the newest versions of fake SA dies that they had not seen. When you have pretentious megalomaniacal imbeciles "leading" and controlling forum discussions the damage is predictable, like having an orangutan as your bus driver. All my opinions of course.

 

[nirvana]

I've pretty much abandoned gunboards. There are still good people and good forums there, but it's drifted away from where I want to be as a collector. To be truthful, I've drifted from Mosins as well, which sucks, since I've got like 20-30 of them. It's a shame the Finn stuff is being dicked with. It was only a matter of time I guess.

Regarding new collectors: I'm at the edge of the "new generation" range, being about 30. I can say from experience that kids are NOT buying WW2 stuff in any quantity. They've switched to commbloc and Iraqi stuff. The stuff is easier to find, almost always authentic, and is now "cool" to mess with. You can get a uniform collection going with a polish, Soviet, yugo, Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian example, and be out for well under $1,000 shipped. What Nazi era uniform can you get for that money? A nice tunic and a belt with a buckle. Maybe. For the price of one matching high end K98 you can get a dozen decent matching Mosins and a few crates full of ammo. Don't get me started on badges, sniper rifles, pistols, etc.

I think that some of this stuff is going to maintain value, it always does, but in my lifetime I expect to see third reich militaria go the same route as civil war stuff. All of the top end stuff is owned by guys that are older than my generation, who buy/sell in their circles, many of whom have a vested interest in screwing other collectors. There are tons of fakes out there, and stuff coming from the woodwork is getting pretty uncommon. I don't know how this is going to change. Just my thoughts.