Questionable Camos

[mauser99]

My question is if collectors can not agree on what is real and what is fake why would anyone spend $3-4k? Won't the amount of fakes in the hobby eventually drive collectors away or at the minimum make it so new collectors don't want to enter? At that point it becomes supply and demand. If there are not enough buyers the helmets will drop in price. Both the real and the fake ones because it seems the line is being blurred by too many collectors not wanting to believe a fake is a fake, and maybe even some being too cynical. However I would err on the side of caution. If an expert like M45 says it is fake, even if it maybe real, it wouldn't earn my money.

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Be careful of that thought process. You are dealing with one man's opinion and possibly an agenda. Im not saying he does or doesn't but, it seems so to me. I have thought what he is doing here is worth while and needs to be brought to the collector communities attention but, then there is the flip side. Any helmet he doesn't like he condemns on his terms. He is flat out wrong if he feels all camos or helmets for that matter should exude the wear patterns and age patterns. I have argued this point till I was blue in the face. It doesn't sink in.
Consider this thread as one mans opinions and one mans agenda and doesn't speak for all. NOTE: extreme caution needs to be taken when buying any form of militaria or collectable for that matter. This doesn't change with German helmets. Yes, Buying mint near mint decaled helmets is your best option in the long haul IMHO. This is my opinion. Others will differ. " Questionable camos" is the name of this thread NOT fake camos. This needs to be reeled in a bit as to where this thread started and now where's its going. My 2 cents.

 

[M45]

EF, I would recommend many camo collectors step back from the hobby for a time to get their bearings on authenticity versus forgery. Knowing what's what in camo collecting has become increasingly difficult as time goes on, and from what I've seen on various forums, many collectors are having the wool pulled over their eyes. And I'm just referring to questionable camos here. When you add in the increasing numbers of high-end fakes, I see a hobby completely vulnerable to fraud.

One place camo collectors could begin a serious study is right here on this thread. Here are posted dozens of questionable camos, a number of high end fakes and authentic camos to examine.

You can't fly by the seat of your pants in this hobby and expect to succeed; it doesn't work that way anymore. Ask a pilot if anyone can just climb into an airplane and start flying. They will have the thing upside-down and into the ground before they know what's happened. They need to learn how to read the instruments and disregard what their senses tell them.

This is what camo collectors need to do; disregard their emotions and gut feelings and learn to read the characteristics on these things that will tell them what is going on.

I see a noticeable difference between the way TR era Wehrmacht forces viewed the concept of camouflage for their helmets, and the way modern day 'restorers' see the issue. This can be apparent by comparisons of known originals to exotic freshies. Restorers will typically spend much time and effort to achieve just the right look such as the correct texture, the correct colors, the correct scheme, the correct application of paint/wire, and so on and it becomes obvious that one is not contemplating a period field camouflaged German helmet but a work or art.

Be careful of that thought process. You are dealing with one man's opinion and possibly an agenda. Im not saying he does or doesn't but, it seems so to me. I have thought what he is doing here is worth while and needs to be brought to the collector communities attention but, then there is the flip side. Any helmet he doesn't like he condemns on his terms. He is flat out wrong if he feels all camos or helmets for that matter should exude the wear patterns and age patterns. I have argued this point till I was blue in the face. It doesn't sink in.
Consider this thread as one mans opinions and one mans agenda and doesn't speak for all. NOTE: extreme caution needs to be taken when buying any form of militaria or collectable for that matter. This doesn't change with German helmets. Yes, Buying mint near mint decaled helmets is your best option in the long haul IMHO. This is my opinion. Others will differ. " Questionable camos" is the name of this thread NOT fake camos. This needs to be reeled in a bit as to where this thread started and now where's its going. My 2 cents.

All I can say is it looks too nice... But, that's not a good reason for not buying an item..

If the story is true and the conditions were correct any helmet can survive in this state.

Mauser, so if the Captain takes an overly cautious view about camos - that is dangerous, but if you buy some half-baked story you are convinced that any camo could conceivably have survived in near mint condition despite being a field modifed helmet (front line/static defense). That is the type of thinking that is used to justify modern art and is what I'M saying is dangerous.



-You are dealing with one man's opinion and possibly an agenda. Im not saying he does or doesn't but, it seems so to me.

Alright Mauser, if I have an 'agenda' then what is it ? If I was vetting questionable camos that friends of mine owned, you could say that I was contributing to my friends' illegitimate businesses and possibly getting kick-backs for reward. But I'm telling people to exhibit extreme caution with camos - essentially telling them NOT to buy them.



-Any helmet he doesn't like he condemns on his terms. He is flat out wrong if he feels all camos or helmets for that matter should exude the wear patterns and age patterns. I have argued this point till I was blue in the face. It doesn't sink in.

Mauser, your concerns have been duly noted. My points about questionable camos such as pristine conditioned paint next to heavy wear to bare steel, fresh red rust, near 100% coverage despite heavy rim/vent/rivet wear, RAL colors off and so on are important aspects that I do not think are sinking in with collectors.


-NOTE: extreme caution needs to be taken when buying any form of militaria or collectable for that matter. This doesn't change with German helmets.

There, you see Mauser, we DO agree on some things.


-"Questionable camos" is the name of this thread NOT fake camos. This needs to be reeled in a bit as to where this thread started and now where's its going. My 2 cents.

I created the thread and I named it that because I felt it was more appropriate as a way of inviting discussion, contradictory discussion especially. Once the numerous bad qualities are discussed, collectors are left to come to their own conclusions. I will usually post my assessments which collectors may or may not agree with, thus inviting more discussion.

I still think camo collectors are being ripped off big time. Forums are places that show collectors what "real camos" look like.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

I have debated along with several others with m45 about many of the points listed above. To M45 EVERY single camo must exhibit the same wear and qualities. Then in post 1210 on page 121 he replies to wayne that to say EVERY single camo needs a hands on seems extreme. Makes no sense and seems contradictory to the running theme of this thread. I guess they don't need a hands on bc they're all fake. And to be honest I cease to even see the usefulness of this thread and use of bandwidth. As Wayne says, this entire thread is all one man's opinion. That is indisputable. I think the vast majority of helmets in this thread he is correct on. However, he only ever posts "original" camos when badgered or prompted. Handling fakes helps you understand them but to really know what to look for you need hands on original examples. Calling out basically every single helmet on the web with more than 1 paint color as a fake isn't really helping anybody IMO.

 

[mauser99]

Mauser, so if the Captain takes an overly cautious view about camos - that is dangerous, but if you buy some half-baked story you are convinced that any camo could conceivably have survived in near mint condition despite being a field modifed helmet (front line/static defense). That is the type of thinking that is used to justify modern art and is what I'M saying is dangerous.



-You are dealing with one man's opinion and possibly an agenda. Im not saying he does or doesn't but, it seems so to me.

Alright Mauser, if I have an 'agenda' then what is it ? If I was vetting a questionable camos that friends of mine owned, you could say that I was contributing to my friend's illegitimate businesses and possibly getting kick-backs for reward. But I'm telling people to exhibit extreme caution with camos - essentially telling them NOT to buy them.



-Any helmet he doesn't like he condemns on his terms. He is flat out wrong if he feels all camos or helmets for that matter should exude the wear patterns and age patterns. I have argued this point till I was blue in the face. It doesn't sink in.

Mauser, your concerns have been duly noted. My points about questionable camos such as pristine conditioned paint next to heavy wear to bare steel, fresh red rust, near 100% coverage despite heavy rim/vent/rivet wear, RAL colors off and so on are important aspects that I do not think are sinking in with collectors.


-NOTE: extreme caution needs to be taken when buying any form of militaria or collectable for that matter. This doesn't change with German helmets.

There, you see Mauser, we DO agree on some things.


-"Questionable camos" is the name of this thread NOT fake camos. This needs to be reeled in a bit as to where this thread started and now where's its going. My 2 cents.

I created the thread and I named it that because I felt it was more appropriate as a way of inviting discussion, contradictory discussion especially. Once the numerous bad qualities are discussed, collectors are left to come to their own conclusions. I will usually post my assessments which collectors may or may not agree with, thus inviting more discussion.

I still think camo collectors are being ripped off big time. Forums are places that show collectors what "real camos" look like.

I have commended you many times on your crusade. I just don't think you are right all the time. Nor am I. I just started to read this thread from the beginning again and got a chuckle out of it. It started off great and got a bit off track like most do. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[capt14k]

Just out of curiosity couldn't paint chips be tested on camo helmets? I'm not taking about a BS Ray Guy but actually having to cut off a chip of paint. While it would be making a small imperfection it would at least fully vet the helmet. I don't know enough about forensic science, but I would think it is possible.

How many would be willing to subject their helmets that they are so positive about to such testing? What If 90% of them came back as fake? If they did I would say the problem is beyond repair, and if I was a camo collector I would sell them all today.

I would like to see some side by side comparisons of similar fake helmets that most everyone can agree on, questionable helmets that M45 says are fake and others think are real, and helmets M45 believes are legit.

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[mauser99]

Just out of curiosity couldn't paint chips be tested on camo helmets? I'm not taking about a BS Ray Guy but actually having to cut off a chip of paint. While it would be making a small imperfection it would at least fully vet the helmet. I don't know enough about forensic science, but I would think it is possible.

How many would be willing to subject their helmets that they are so positive about to such testing? What If 90% of them came back as fake? If they did I would say the problem is beyond repair, and if I was a camo collector I would sell them all today.

I would like to see some side by side comparisons of similar fake helmets that most everyone can agree on, questionable helmets that M45 says are fake and others think are real, and helmets M45 believes are legit.

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This has been talked about. As in the great art forgeries and all the big art galleries falling over the last huge scam there has been work done to try to keep this from happening AGAIN. As its happened many times. The paint can be tested as paint used in the 17th and 18th centuries differs from 20th century paints. But camo helmets are 20th century creations and aren't really antiques. Lead being one key test point. But, @ what percentage ? It's a great point and it's been brought up here many times.

 

[Eurofighter]

EF, take a look at this GHW2 woodchip camo with traces of whitewash and wire remnants with clear painted name (quite a mouthful and quite a bit to have on a single helmet). Do you think it has a chance ?

M45 to answer your question, I think this is your typical sacrificial ND M42, a nice 'plain Jane' with a post war added wood chip covering.

Reasons - a) In this case very little to zero wear. b) Reddish looking rust in various areas. c) Liner looks in much better shape than the helmet, raising suspicion.

EF

 

[Nzef1940]

Another good lid condemned.

I am out of here...

QUOTE=Eurofighter;186541]M45 to answer your question, I think this is your typical sacrificial ND M42, a nice 'plain Jane' with a post war added wood chip covering.

Reasons - a) In this case very little to zero wear. b) Reddish looking rust in various areas. c) Liner looks in much better shape than the helmet, raising suspicion.

EF[/QUOTE]

 

[Hambone]

This has been talked about. As in the great art forgeries and all the big art galleries falling over the last huge scam there has been work done to try to keep this from happening AGAIN. As its happened many times. The paint can be tested as paint used in the 17th and 18th centuries differs from 20th century paints. But camo helmets are 20th century creations and aren't really antiques. Lead being one key test point. But, @ what percentage ? It's a great point and it's been brought up here many times.

My opinions based upon over 30 years of collecting helmets and watching assorted self anointed gurus and internet instant expert/moderator wankers:
Lead testing is not really even relevant except as a constituent pigment as part of a greater compound. It is not in sufficient quantities in even factor helmets for a standard lead testing kit (for home use) to ID. But yes, camo helmet paint can be tested. It's just that a non-voodoo real lab test by non carnival barkering experts/analysts is expensive, like in the $2000+ range. The WAFtarded under WAFloid the WAFmod used to shriek and wail at the prospect of objective paint testing, ("if you need a paint test you shouldn't be collecting", idiocy like this). Then, a few of their lid gods and those who influence opinion and content threw in with XRFacts and decided that XRFacts was the "Saviour of The Hobby" because their lids were used as "baselines", and obviously there is money and "power" in the authentication racket. That was obvious when these codheads were pretentiously blessing the most ridiculous circus klown looking "exotic freshie camo" lids I've ever seen, which were then sold to the waftarded for $2500 to $3500 a pop. I guess the rule here is that the bigshots are OK with paint testing as long as it is their scheme and they control it.

There are enough crooks out there that when a real test is finally used, they will be going ballistic, much more so than the censoring, attacks, and meltdowns over the "Champagne Rune". If anyone tells you that a lab cannot take a speck of a sample from a German camo helmet and identify the compounds and elements in a helmet and tell you if it has postwar pigments and binders in it, then you should quit listening to them. If anyone tells you that "fakes are done with original period type paints" is an ignoramus or just started collecting and is parroting the "expertise" of ignoramuses or the toadies of lid humpers. The vast majority of humped camos are done with modern paints and chemicals for the same reason that The Great Champagne Rune Fraud lasted so long.

 

[capt14k]

I figured they could test by a means other than lead content. If they can tell the DNA of twins apart by environmental factors then I'm sure they could test if a paint job has been exposed to the elements for 75 years or 5 years. So if I understand correctly as soon as someone develops a test or a lab is willing to test for a reasonable price, say $200 a helmet, then definitive proof can be shown and thousands of dollars will go up in smoke. Sounds like if a non partial lab were to legitimately test they could make a nice sum of money and it would clean up the hobby.

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[Hambone]

I figured they could test by a means other than lead content. If they can tell the DNA of twins apart by environmental factors then I'm sure they could test if a paint job has been exposed to the elements for 75 years or 5 years. So if I understand correctly as soon as someone develops a test or a lab is willing to test for a reasonable price, say $200 a helmet, then definitive proof can be shown and thousands of dollars will go up in smoke. Sounds like if a non partial lab were to legitimately test they could make a nice sum of money and it would clean up the hobby.

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The effective way to do it would be to take one of an identical camo type, such as the "Floid Four (or Five +)" and test one. It would take a chip of paint about 1/4 the size of a pencil eraser, maybe smaller. It would cost a couple grand. If it came back GTG, then we'd all learn something and those camos would be worth more. If it came back as showing postwar chemicals, binders, pigments, etc., then some folks would be sucking air and making excuses.

 

[capt14k]

The effective way to do it would be to take one of an identical camo type, such as the "Floid Four (or Five +)" and test one. It would take a chip of paint about 1/4 the size of a pencil eraser, maybe smaller. It would cost a couple grand. If it came back GTG, then we'd all learn something and those camos would be worth more. If it came back as showing postwar chemicals, binders, pigments, etc., then some folks would be sucking air and making excuses.

With all the H1B Visa folks going to be sent back to their home hell holes I bet we could have it done for hundreds not thousands. Send it to a lab in India. I smell a business for us Hambone. We can be the legit XRFacts.

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[Hambone]

With all the H1B Visa folks going to be sent back to their home hell holes I bet we could have it done for hundreds not thousands. Send it to a lab in India. I smell a business for us Hambone. We can be the legit XRFacts.

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The neurotic shrieking from the waftarded and their Lid Gods would be unbearable. it's why DougB got disgusted and left the hobby.

 

[M45]

M1935 Heer Wire Camouflaged/Field Overpaint German Helmet

M1935 Heer Wire Camouflaged/Field Overpaint German Helmet

http://ww2germanhelmets.com/M1935-Heer-German-Helmet-2954.html

This is just simply a WWII helmet oozing character! This is an original M1935 Heer Overpainted/Wire Camouflaged German helmet. This Heer German helmet retains around 90%+ of the war time applied rough texture over-paint. The over-paint appears to have a mixture of sand or sawdust and looks terrific. There is mud mixed in along with remnants of winter whitewash. There is period wire on the helmet as well. The Split pin rivets are fully intact and are clearly original to the helmet. This German helmet retains its original steel banded M1931 liner. The band size 56. The liner leather is in good overall condition and the original drawstring is present. The drawstring does exhibit some fraying. The original chinstrap is present and is in good condition. The helmet is an early ET64 indicating manufacture by the Eisenhuttenwerke firm in Thale, Germany. The lot number is 3244. The rear skirt is named to German soldier "Schüßler". Overall, this is one high on the charts for display qualities! As with all our WWII German helmets, this M1935 Heer German helmet comes with our Lifetime Guarantee and Certificate of Authenticity.

$2,250.00 Item #2954

At first glance, an old beat up reissue with some wire. Upon closer examination it falls into the same category as those 'reissues' in post# 1111. While the color looks to be a green/gray or slate gray typical depot reissue color, the heavy texture is not associated with depot reissues but with field modified helmets (camos). So is this helmet a depot reissue, a woodchip camo, a snow camo, a mud camo, or a wire camo ?? Or all of the above ?? Amazingly, this helmet has all of those elements in addition to a nice painted name.

The zoom shot shows pristine conditioned material (and a beat up rusted old wire) with the applicator apparently avoiding the rim. With snow mud and wire, you would think the helmet had been many places and seen much action - but the paint condition is pristine. How does that happen, Nzef1940 ?



I suppose my point is that these so-called 'reissues' (as opposed to factory finishes or field camos) are being replicated as others have been.

The primary mistake that the 'artists' are making IMO is that the reissue colors (green/gray, slate gray, and luft blue/gray) applied by reissue depots were used either with no texture or with texture not dissimilar to factory texture (as per surviving examples). The 'reissues' below, while using reissue colors, show heavy anti-glare elements (woodchips, concrete, etc...) seen on field modified helmets, not depot reissues. So while the heavy anti-glare elements in the paint fit a field modified scenario, the reissue colors do not. My understanding is that depot reissue paint and factory paint was generally not available to soldiers in the field.

Those are just the 'theoretical' problems I have with the helmets listed. Practical problems exist with unnatural wear.

 

[DaveDavis]

http://ww2germanhelmets.com/M1935-He...lmet-2954.html

Really ?????????

Authentic German
WWII Helmets are
our specialty.


We weed out the fakes, so you won't have too!
Can you tell a fake one from a real one?

 

[Warrior1354]

But they come with a piece of paper that says their real!

Lifetime Guarantee and Certificate of Authenticity.

So if its fake and the buyer wants his money back then what? We keep your money we know its real end of story. No soup for you come back one year.

 

[capt14k]

But they come with a piece of paper that says their real!

Lifetime Guarantee and Certificate of Authenticity.

So if its fake and the buyer wants his money back then what? We keep your money we know its real end of story. No soup for you come back one year.

I saw that Lifetime Guarantee but couldn't find the details. Has anyone returned one and received full reimbursement?

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[Warrior1354]

Don't believe so its mind blowing how many were taken for the SS helmets already with this worthless piece of paper included. And those buyers paid well over $5000-$10000 for those lids or more.

 

[M45]

http://www.italianwarfront.com/?page_id=20253

German world war two Wehrmacht - W-SS M-42 " Normandy " camo helmet. Shell ckl 66, liner size 58. Classic tricolor camouflage and you can see was spray painted from the top. All 3 pins / washers unmolested never bend twice. Cannot take any trades for this because is a consignment, the owner got this from Ardennes 44 militaria antiques. $3,100

Ardennes44 is a European dealer. RAL spray paint is available in Europe. Get yourself 3 cans of RAL paint, a low$$$ ND M42, invite friends over for some schnitzel and a case of Becks beer, and have a helmet painting party. The only problem is that damn micro-spatter from those modern spray nozzles. Yes I can see the helmet was painted from above due to that rivet shadow - a nice touch.

 

[mauser99]

that's a horrible camo..Cant believe G let this one on his site. After that fake camo Q he bought back he would be more careful ????