Questionable Camos

[M45]

The man standing in the doorway has an Allied style collar ?

It looks that way. Nice catch. It doesn't look quite like a panzer uniform, it does look allied.

There goes another photo into the "not likely" box. And this is why I will never own a medic helmet.

US para leppel collar second from left.

 

[Hambone]

US para leppel collar second from left.

Actually an M.43 jacket. Kindof looks like that.

 

[Eurofighter]

Well said Frank.

Yes, thank you Craig. I've stated it a number of times: I do see value in this discussion, even if I am not on-board with everything that's being said. Brian is right: it's subjective. We are just looking at pictures on a computer after all.

What I appreciate most is that this discussion is forcing you to look closer at an artifact. Reading through the posts in this thread I found myself a number of times thinking 'I didn't notice that!' — something you won't get from pages of "Thumbs up!" "Stunner!" or "One looker!" I enjoy seeing things from a different perspective, even if I sometimes want to shout 'Step away from there!'

Agree that it would be nice if M45 and GHW could mend fences and some form of this discussion could take place there. I'd imagine it could lead to quite a bit of new insight.

That, or a bar brawl.

F.

Agree totally.

Camo RAL colours - Is the Green/Blue period RAL? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

EF

 

[M45]

Ideally I would like to have a crown shot and some zoom shots, but regardless, I'm not channeling this one as a 70 year old relic. Which RAL colors are these supposed to be ? I see some repetitive dings and paint drips/ridges appear untouched.

Somewhat exotic, stark contrasts, near 100% coverage.... add everything up and I get a big 'no-go'.

My first impression was bad and after looking closer I see nothing to change that impression.

 

[Eurofighter]

Hello M45,

I am not so experienced at recognizing period paint colours (RAL), so my initial question was to ask if the green/blue is a known period colour. Obviously, I assumed that the originality would then come into question.

My thoughts/opinion is that the helmet was a re-issue with late-war field applied camo.

I am not suggesting this final paint scheme has seen the whole war through. It has obviously been re-issued or repaired, as it has a zinc coated steel liner band (see additional pics). This re-issue paint has then later had a camo scheme applied on top.

I don't have the helmet in hand, but could be part of a trade I am looking at. All I know is that the helmet was posted on GHW in 2010 and has been in the same collection since. It was apparently acquired by the current owner from an antique shop (former house clearance) in Northern Bavaria.

Here are some additional pictures. The Ammo tin for colour comparison.

EF

 

[M45]

It does appear to be an M35 reissue with zinc liner. I see a fair amount of wear to the reissue finish underneath the camo finish.

Now whether the camo on top of the reissue finish is original is questionable, IMO. I'm of the impression that elaborate period field mods were more of a mid-war idea, not so much late war.

I see some repetitive wear marks on the camo that give me pause.

Look at the helmet underneath a camo; a low$$$ no-decal reissue M35; a good choice for an upgrade.

 

[mauser99]

This is an odd one and one I like and don't like if that's possible.... In one or two of the shots the paint shows real age. But , the color is odd for sure ?? Has a green/blue look to it with that typical red that shows up on some red and green luft camos that are a know/approved color combo even by M45 if Im not mistaken. If it was cheap enough and Had a chance for "in hand" inspection I would give it a look.

 

[Eurofighter]

Thank you for your thoughts -

To add - I see both decals under the paint.

EF

 

[mauser99]

Thank you for your thoughts -

To add - I see both decals under the paint.

EF

No problem....After all the BS that goes on here the least we can do is give honest opinions on an helmet is someone asks. The first batch of photos I didn't care for much the second batch with extreme close ups of the paint help push me more towards liking it as the paint shows real age.

 

[ZF41 K98k]

For what it's worth like that helmet Eurofighter. The blue/green is not the same colour as on the MG ammo tin though, IMHO.

 

[Eurofighter]

No problem....After all the BS that goes on here the least we can do is give honest opinions on an helmet is someone asks. The first batch of photos I didn't care for much the second batch with extreme close ups of the paint help push me more towards liking it as the paint shows real age.

Agreed - I like this thread. It just needs the removal of the personal attacks. Opinions are to be listened to and to take from them what each individual agrees with.
As for the pictures, again it highlights the issues when giving appraisal via photographs. They are not mine, so had to use what I had. The darker colour is apparently a brown colour and not a darker shade of gray/green. Thanks again.

For what it's worth like that helmet Eurofighter. The blue/green is not the same colour as on the MG ammo tin though, IMHO.

Yes, the Ammo tin was the closest 'period' colour that I could find for comparison.

EF

 

[M45]

Consider the red flags on this one;

- a very unusual color combination (such as commonly seen on fake exotic freshies)

- stark contrasts, somewhat exotic and very desirable to camo collectors

- near 100% of camo remaining (not used much in actual combat with that 'used but not abused look' that camo collectors like to see)

- it appears with many other exotic freshies out of nowhere with no clear vet provenance (how did a gem like this escape the scrap heap, disposal hole, or not collected up decades ago ?)

- the base helmet is a low $$$ likely no-decal reissue (a great choice for an upgrade to exotic camo)

- the paint seems to have no age, no depth, no deadness associated with long oxidation that I see on known original camos.

- some repetitive hack marks (commonly seen on poorly aged exotic freshies and Champagne SS decals)

 

[M45]

Considering that the German helmet collecting hobby has been flooded with fakes in recent decades with a strong uptick in the last 10 years or so, and considering that there are many unscrupulous people who want to relieve collectors of their hard earned dollars, it may be prudent for us to approach potential purchases with a bit more skepticism and suspicion instead of relying on 'gut feelings' or what turns our crank.

It has been my attempt to provide a checklist of sorts, characteristics to look for that collectors can review. These are independent of 'gut feelings', COAs, dealer beliefs, forum vettings, ownership histories and bogus paperwork.

 

[Hambone]

Hello M45,

I am not so experienced at recognizing period paint colours (RAL), so my initial question was to ask if the green/blue is a known period colour. Obviously, I assumed that the originality would then come into question.

My thoughts/opinion is that the helmet was a re-issue with late-war field applied camo.

I am not suggesting this final paint scheme has seen the whole war through. It has obviously been re-issued or repaired, as it has a zinc coated steel liner band (see additional pics). This re-issue paint has then later had a camo scheme applied on top.

I don't have the helmet in hand, but could be part of a trade I am looking at. All I know is that the helmet was posted on GHW in 2010 and has been in the same collection since. It was apparently acquired by the current owner from an antique shop (former house clearance) in Northern Bavaria.

Here are some additional pictures. The Ammo tin for colour comparison.

EF

EF, I do not think that a "fake" camo, or something humped up to sell. I would wonder whether it is not a postwar overpainted camo, early Norwegian for example. It looks like there is a second layer of olive green under the camo paint which appears to me to be Norwegian color. For example, this is a known Norwegian postwar camo:

 

[Eurofighter]

Consider the red flags on this one;

- a very unusual color combination (such as commonly seen on fake exotic freshies)

- stark contrasts, somewhat exotic and very desirable to camo collectors

- near 100% of camo remaining (not used much in actual combat with that 'used but not abused look' that camo collectors like to see)

- it appears with many other exotic freshies out of nowhere with no clear vet provenance (how did a gem like this escape the scrap heap, disposal hole, or not collected up decades ago ?)

- the base helmet is a low $$$ likely no-decal reissue (a great choice for an upgrade to exotic camo)

- the paint seems to have no age, no depth, no deadness associated with long oxidation that I see on known original camos.

- some repetitive hack marks (commonly seen on poorly aged exotic freshies and Champagne SS decals)

Counter arguments:

1) It is unusual (very) hence my initial question - but that is no 'kiss of death' - if the paint colour can be confirmed as period.
2) Not 100% sure what is meant by 'stark contrasts' but this camo scheme (pattern) is a known variant and I have seen period pictures of such.
3) 100% coverage - I can not disagree, but depends upon when that final camo scheme was applied prior to being 'captured'. It is also not the best applied 'artistically' - seems to have been applied in a rush or without much thought.
4) Sadly, not all helmets have provenance. That does not prevent it being original. Collections are moved on when people move on.
5) Base helmet as I confirmed is an ex DD.
6) Paint - appearance from photographs can be deceiving. To me it has a lot duller appearance than many photographed 'exotic' vibrant coloured camo helmets. Hence - in-hand is really needed. I can not understand how you see no depth, to me that is quite obvious with the original, re-issue and camo layers plainly visible.
7) Repetitive marks - down to opinion and interpretation.

Just my counter arguments stimulating a discussion.

Thanks Hambone for the Norwegian angle - appreciated.

Thanks for the input.

EF

 

[Eurofighter]

Considering that the German helmet collecting hobby has been flooded with fakes in recent decades with a strong uptick in the last 10 years or so, and considering that there are many unscrupulous people who want to relieve collectors of their hard earned dollars, it may be prudent for us to approach potential purchases with a bit more skepticism and suspicion instead of relying on 'gut feelings' or what turns our crank.

It has been my attempt to provide a checklist of sorts, characteristics to look for that collectors can review. These are independent of 'gut feelings', COAs, dealer beliefs, forum vettings, ownership histories and bogus paperwork.

Accepted - and I personally appreciate someone keeping a check on these things. As I have said, collectors need a reality check at times, but should take opinion as that and use information to form their own conclusions.

EF

 

[M45]

Counter arguments:

1) It is unusual (very) hence my initial question - but that is no 'kiss of death' - if the paint colour can be confirmed as period.
2) Not 100% sure what is meant by 'stark contrasts' but this camo scheme (pattern) is a known variant and I have seen period pictures of such.
3) 100% coverage - I can not disagree, but depends upon when that final camo scheme was applied prior to being 'captured'. It is also not the best applied 'artistically' - seems to have been applied in a rush or without much thought.
4) Sadly, not all helmets have provenance. That does not prevent it being original. Collections are moved on when people move on.
5) Base helmet as I confirmed is an ex DD.
6) Paint - appearance from photographs can be deceiving. To me it has a lot duller appearance than many photographed 'exotic' vibrant coloured camo helmets. Hence - in-hand is really needed. I can not understand how you see no depth, to me that is quite obvious with the original, re-issue and camo layers plainly visible.
7) Repetitive marks - down to opinion and interpretation.

Just my counter arguments stimulating a discussion.

Thanks Hambone for the Norwegian angle - appreciated.

Thanks for the input.

EF

While each individual issue is certainly not the 'kiss of death', adding up all of the issues before making a decision may be prudent.

Consider these two camos:

1. very common 'Normandy' 3 color RAL schemes

2. colors seem to blend together with no real definite lines between them, as opposed to well defined borders (stark contrasts)

3. camos show moderate combat wear


Your base helmet was factory DD to ND reissue with zinc liner band to camo ?

 

[mauser99]

Considering that the German helmet collecting hobby has been flooded with fakes in recent decades with a strong uptick in the last 10 years or so, and considering that there are many unscrupulous people who want to relieve collectors of their hard earned dollars, it may be prudent for us to approach potential purchases with a bit more skepticism and suspicion instead of relying on 'gut feelings' or what turns our crank.

It has been my attempt to provide a checklist of sorts, characteristics to look for that collectors can review. These are independent of 'gut feelings', COAs, dealer beliefs, forum vettings, ownership histories and bogus paperwork.

OK, so what are we suppose to do solely rely on you. ????


The only camo's you seem to like is those beat to death with 20% coverage.

We don't see what you see so again you either need glasses or we all do... You don't seem to agree with anyone on any topic.

 

[M45]

OK, so what are we suppose to do solely rely on you. ????


The only camo's you seem to like is those beat to death with 20% coverage.

We don't see what you see so again you either need glasses or we all do... You don't seem to agree with anyone on any topic.

I think the key here is not to rely on anybody or anything. Don't take anyone's word out of hand without doing your own homework and verifying it yourself.

Don't rely on dealers who say things like:

This is one of the very few "one looker" original snow camouflage helmets that I have ever owned. - Ken N.
This is one of the very few medic helmets which I judged as real from the second I laid my eyes on it. - Ken N.

Don't rely on certificates of authenticity, don't rely one what your forum friends say, don't rely on dubious vet paperwork,

and due to the high-end fake which is in a class by itself, don't rely on your gut feelings. Your eyes and your feelings will deceive you.

And also, don't rely on what I say. VERIFY what I say.

If collectors persist in reliance of other people and things without doing their homework and knowing themselves, they will never progress beyond the novice stage in camo collecting.

The word is out; droves of novice camo collectors, who like sheep depend on what they've been told, are prime to be fleeced by anyone with a beat up helmet, a paintbrush, some creativity, a period photo, and a line of B. S.

 

[Eurofighter]

While each individual issue is certainly not the 'kiss of death', adding up all of the issues before making a decision may be prudent.

Agreed.

Your base helmet was factory DD to ND reissue with zinc liner band to camo ?

I think these 3 pictures show that the decals have not been removed.

EF