Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Thank you. I've been banned from WAF and the old GHW, and then MCF and my posts on XRFacts were deleted and censored at Gunboards. Yet I have been, and am, at all times since about 2005 a moderator or super-moderator at one or more K98k forums and sites, as I am now. That's a bit strange, that some wankers proclaim me a "hobby anarchist" (hilarious, love it) at WAF, yet at K98k sites I'm a moderator/super-moderator. I am the same person, so what (who) is different? I think if you ask collectors here whether they believe the information they get is trusted, vetted, transparent and objective, and whether they trust my moderating you'll find what the difference is. We appreciate outspokenness if it gets us to the truth. That's why M45 has a voice here. That's why YOU have a voice here, although I've asked you nicely to stick to the topics, coherent factual arguments, and limit the personal attacks. For the record, I support GHW2 and what they are doing. They covered the XRFacts / Shampain Ruin matters when others were covering them up. I also support M45 and what he's done with lot number research. I would hope that there could be some fence mending between M45 and GHW2 as I believe both sides could benefit from that.
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2 ridiculously fake helmets for sale on the WAF classifieds.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911183
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911090
Someone with more time can post the images
Those pages need to be policed.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911183
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911090
Someone with more time can post the images
Those pages need to be policed.
M45
Well-known member
Mauser, I'm not quite blind yet. I do see a difference between questionable camos (first 5 photos - should be obvious to most) and the high-end replicas (last 4 photos).
While the two German Ebay camos are obvious, many questionable camos I've seen posted on helmet forums are not much better. Then you have the high-end stuff that is in a class by itself.
If collectors cannot see that the top 5 camos are bad, they are in the wrong hobby.
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Frank F.
Well-known member
Funny stuff. And that's where I say you can agree or disagree with Brian all day long. Without this kind of madness here it would all be real and authentic.
Think about that for a second.
F.
Player11
Right Nad
I dont agree, this is supposed to be a forum specialized in K98, the fact that M45 is here is because he doesnt have another place to writte his arguments ( lets call it like this). If you want to specialize in helmets you have to go to another helmet forum.
As i love G43 i came here to see more of them.
M45
Well-known member
Yes Frank, you can agree or disagree with me all day long because camos are subjective, aren't they ? It is all about your perceptions, your gut feelings, your experiences with them. And your gut feelings may be influenced by the perceptions of your forum friends. What do they think ? And don't forget the sellers of camos have gut feelings and beliefs as well. A seller/dealer may come across a camo/medic from a picker or fellow collector and immediately have a Paul the Apostle moment where there is a bright light in the sky shining down on the helmet and he will suddenly just know that what he is holding in his hands is a rare original. Of course these revelations are guaranteed and cause the prices to rise dramatically, because we all know that "rare originals" cost much more than movie props (re: a $500 replica red cross helmet miraculously becomes a $5800 'original').
If there is really no right or wrong answer here and if it's all a matter of subjective collector perceptions, then why are the opinions of your friends so right and my opinions so wrong ?
Those strange revelations from the sky seem to have also influenced the sellers and promoters of the Champagne-SS helmets. Remember Kelly's description of how he knew C-SS was authentic ? One day he encountered C-SS (after about 10 years of collecting German helmets) liked it, and considered it a part of the SS decal pantheon. Somehow, someway with no objective evidence whatsoever, he just knew that C-SS was authentic.
And remember DougB's account of how he knew C-SS was authentic ? It was based on a small handful of C-SS NS M35 helmets with similar paint, dates and lot number range, and with a very few C-SS hkp M42 helmets in a tight lot number cluster with similar insignia composition (airbrushed). So then, a small handful of NS M35 and hkp M42 helmets had been targeted for C-SS treatment which justifies in his mind the existence of the "authentic" NS-SS decal that he promoted.
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M45
Well-known member
The only reason collectors recognize REX's restoration work IMO is that he stated what it was. If REX had been a bad guy (which he is clearly not) and promoted them as authentic, his restorations are good enough IMO to fool most camo collectors and helmet forums. I consider them to be high-end replicas. Not perfect mind you, but in a class apart from those questionable camos in the top row, for instance.
On the other hand, when high-end replicas appear on forums with no stated artist and no clear vet provenance, they are accepted as authentic. That's really the only difference.
Of those 9 camos posted above, I see nothing there I would consider as pre May 1945.
On the other hand, when high-end replicas appear on forums with no stated artist and no clear vet provenance, they are accepted as authentic. That's really the only difference.
Of those 9 camos posted above, I see nothing there I would consider as pre May 1945.
I would have been banned again from WAF for discussing XRFacts, as others had their posts censored, deleted, and others were banned for it, just like the previous attempts to discuss the Champagne Rune were censored and those who doubted it were attacked and threatened. For a couple years at WAF, XRFacts was the "savior of the hobby". How embarrassingly absurd; what a bunch of ridiculous pretentious ignorant clowns. That was the prevailing "wisdom" there because anything else was censored. But that was the majority opinion.
We believe in freedom of speech and transparency here. Otherwise, all you would see on this forum is what I and the other mods wanted you to see. Would it be appropriate or helpful to the hobby and people trying to learn for me to censor and delete the posts that I disagreed with and ban those who posted such things?
If you love the G.43, do you appreciate the fact that the rifles, information, and posts you see are properly vetted, argued, and all sides are presented whether you agree with them or not? Sometimes free speech and the truth are harsh, or not what we want to hear or read. I prefer the truth, and I certainly prefer an open forum to one "moderated" and controlled by an echo chamber of pretentious censoring buffoons with hidden agendas.
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Player11
Right Nad
Yes, but how to help when there is somebody who is blind in judging all the camos that appears on the net, many times without knowledge.
Or when you are trying to explain something about KC and another member with less knowledge than the first one comes and what can say " Is this a joke, isnt it"?
I gave proof of how detect a fake KC and was taken as a joker, do this person deserve to share my knowledge with him, od he doesnt deserve a minute of my attention with him?
I don't believe that there is such thing as an original German medic helmet, this one included. Its not the wear, or the color, or the decal, or anything. Every photo of a German medic wearing a red cross on his helmet was either taken in a studio, or while the wearer was in allied custody. Is it *possible* that one exists? Sure, but I wouldn't put cash on the table for any such item.
So you would like me to silence and ban those with whom I disagree? Or rather, silence and ban those with whom you disagree? That sounds like North Korea to me. This isn't WAF. Our members here are presumed to have sufficient intellect to hear all sides and make a decision. You say M45 doesn't know anything, but that's your opinion. He certainly knows about lot numbers and helmet manufacturer history. I buy all of his research studies and I recommend everyone interested in the hobby do so as well. When I disagree with M45 I post that I do. You are free to do likewise, and disagree with me as well, without being censored or banned as you would be at WAF. That freedom also extends to the gentlemen reading this who are free to come to their own conclusions without me or anyone else manipulating posts and information. Make valid points without histrionics and personal attacks and your position will likely prevail, which is the purpose of this discussion.
Thanks,
HB
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M45
Well-known member
Nirvana, I have found that to be the case as well. Probably another collector myth, the idea that German medics routinely wore the highly visible red/white vests with white helmets with or without a red cross. This is just not logical from a tactical military perspective - far too likely that the Allies would catch sight of these high-vis medics and give away their positions.
So if collectors can be led to accept the idea of the high vis red cross medic as more or less standard fare as per the collector myth, then there should be quite a few of these high vis red cross helmets out there, no ?. And not surprisingly, many are being "found" left and right in the woodwork.
Most medic photos I've seen in combat situations (not studio and not surrender situations) the medics show the red/white armband, a medical backpack with cross, and medical corps patch. In this case, there would be very few red/white medic helmets available to collectors.
I think this is related to another collector myth that there were loads of minty camos captured by Allied forces and have, in the last few years, begun emerging from the woodwork. I don't think exotic camos were for the most part targeted as war booty by Allied soldiers as evidenced by photos of exotic camos seen in piles of captured German helmets that were eventually disposed of in pits, or melted down as scrap, or reworked by postwar governments, or made into farm or kitchen implements. Most people involved in all of this did not think like modern day camo collectors, salvaging the most interesting exotic camos, IMO.
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I've seen them in period pics Nirvana. I'm also aware of a very cool Heer issue reversible cover (splinter to white) that had a large red cross period sewn on the white side on the front for medic use. Other than on the Eastern Front, there was a general observation of "civilized warfare" with respect to medics. While on the Eastern Front a white helmet with a cross was a better target, on the Western Front(s) it could save your life.
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Just shows how baseless a lot of it is here.
Nobody is "against" nor scared of differing opinions.
It's when someone uses falsehoods either out of ignorance or malice as "fact".
Ive only seen 1 photo of a german medic with a white and red cross helmet,can't remember if it was on histomil or GHW not so long ago.And for what it's worth I enjoy this thread and what M45 is doing,I don't always agree with what the fellow says but we all have opinions and are lucky to be on a forum that allows us to air them fair and square.
