Questionable Camos

[mcorioles]

I would say you are correct on these points.. The collecting masses as a whole have become more educated and knowledgeable. This will do what you are seeing happen here.. Also there are less buyers and people joining due to the rabid fakes out there. Flipping for honest profit or just trading up have become harder and harder as stuff is coming down in price and people who don't know better want more for their stuff due to internet price shopping. I have but the brakes on all my buying for the most part other than the one odd or end I buy for myself.

Attn: An uneducated buyer is a dealers best friend. Closet collectors are also great prey. Many guys never post or show their stuff and end up with tons of fakes. Most older collections are littered with fakes and getting into one is a mine field. Just because the guy is old and has been collecting for years don't mean squat !

As has been said here and other places this is one of the safest times to be a collector of 3R items.. Most forums can offer almost instant authentication due to some of the best in their fields are there waiting to help. A smart phone and a forum membership will save you thousands on a purchase. I have been avail while friends have been on site looking at stuff point click post done.. We all cant know everything and the pool of collective knowledge on line is amazing. ALSO; if a deal seems to good to be true it probably is. Done ever rush into a purchase if you don't know best to just walk away.

I cant stress enough the importance of getting out going to shows and putting your hands on items real or not.

Saying you can properly judge camo's from photos only is like saying your good @ sex from watching Porno's ....


See below: another lesson in digital photos tow photos of a Jap NCO sword scabbard. Color is an olive brown. See one photo where it looks brighter green and then the other where you can see the true correct color.. One looks like a Chinese fake the other real. Same sword.. So judging camo's " RAL colors off " How do you know what your seeing is what the helmet really looks like ????

A lot of helmets not taken in the correct lighting can show colors off 3 or 4 shades from my experience. I have one Ive never posted cause every time Ive taken photos of it it's 3 shades off and looks horrible. My 2 cents..

Hold on to your stuff till 2039....it'll skyrocket.

 

[Frank F.]

GHW2 Another work of art. Some of Claud Monet's work for comparison.

So you're saying that photos can alter the appearance of colors. Someone else said that these paints were issued in tins of base that were mixed with thinning agents and there was a wide variety in results.

In that case, I guess anything goes with camouflage helmet colors, ANYTHING.

Also, camos are subjective, one of a kind creations by soldiers in the field using their creativity and anything they could find. Since they used all sorts of materials and methods, really ANYTHING is possible.

With all of this in mind, how could camo collectors ever be 100% sure that what they're buying is not a modern creation ?

Answer: they can't. They are relying on gut feelings, forum vettings, COAs, opinions of friends, guarantees and firm beliefs by dealers, and the existences of similar vetted camos in well known collections.

The bottom line seems to be, if the camo collector likes it, that is really the important thing. Actual authenticity takes a back seat while the authentic price is not compromised.

Brian:

If you present this helmet as an example of the way camos are judged over there you should add that this piece was declared a work of art on GHW as well.

You have to keep in mind that there are now two kinds of collectors. One kind is interested in seeking out and study historic artifacts; the other is investing in dreams. The friction starts where both meet — and there are more and more dreamers out there who have dropped serious coin on their fantasies.

I agree with Mauser: "An uneducated buyer is a dealers best friend. Closet collectors are also great prey."

And just one of my thoughts: how much opportunity would an individual front-line soldier, or rear echelon, in the German army even have had to acquire issue, or none issue paint and create his own personal flavor of camo? I do think the possibilities are somewhat limited.

I've said it before: while I do not agree with everything you present here I do consider this thread educational as a whole.

Carry on!

F.

 

[Niblet]

The collecting masses as a whole have become more educated and knowledgeable. f.

I disagree, I think most collectors today are too cheap and lazy to even purchase any reference material
but are content to let forums authenticate their items for them,,,

doubt me? just find any German Helmet group on Facebook and have a good laugh,,,this is the future of collecting
WAF and the Maroon Morons have dumbed down their followers

 

[Niblet]

The collecting masses as a whole have become more educated and knowledgeable.

I disagree, I think most collectors today are too cheap and lazy to even purchase any reference material
but are content to let forums authenticate their items for them,,,

doubt me? just find any German Helmet group on Facebook and have a good laugh,,,this is the future of collecting
WAF and the Maroon Morons have dumbed down their followers

 

[Player11]

I disagree, I think most collectors today are too cheap and lazy to even purchase any reference material
but are content to let forums authenticate their items for them,,,

doubt me? just find any German Helmet group on Facebook and have a good laugh,,,this is the future of collecting
WAF and the Maroon Morons have dumbed down their followers

Hhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahah We also laugh with you so we are 1/1 Hhahahahahah

 

[mauser99]

GHW2 Another work of art. Some of Claud Monet's work for comparison.

So you're saying that photos can alter the appearance of colors. Someone else said that these paints were issued in tins of base that were mixed with thinning agents and there was a wide variety in results.

In that case, I guess anything goes with camouflage helmet colors, ANYTHING.

Also, camos are subjective, one of a kind creations by soldiers in the field using their creativity and anything they could find. Since they used all sorts of materials and methods, really ANYTHING is possible.

With all of this in mind, how could camo collectors ever be 100% sure that what they're buying is not a modern creation ?

Answer: they can't. They are relying on gut feelings, forum vettings, COAs, opinions of friends, guarantees and firm beliefs by dealers, and the existences of similar vetted camos in well known collections.

The bottom line seems to be, if the camo collector likes it, that is really the important thing. Actual authenticity takes a back seat while the authentic price is not compromised.

ASSESSMENT: An exotic 3 color Normandy but RAL colors are off. Red brown appears as burgundy. Heavy wear to rim and vents despite near 99% coverage with just a few prominent chips to the paint. It has that 'used but not abused look that we like to see'. A work of art that took time and planning to achieve.

While I have no doubt that camos with similar exotic schemes existed wartime, they were few and far between compared to other camos, IMO. Then consider how many of them could have actually survived the war intact and were not buried in a giant hole, melted down for scrap, reworked for a West European military/civic service, or turned into kitchen or farm implements.

Of those that did survive all this and were brought home as war booty, how many did not find their way into high end collections that we never get to see ?

AGAIN.... spinning the truth. This helmet isn't being posted as an original its being posted for authentication. This is the major problem I have with you and your smear campaign of GHW.

NOW. it was sure bought as an original camo along with all the others Chuck has posted there. It was quickly dismissed as NOT one to buy.
My comments were I have seen others like this in High end collections and some like these and others don't.

Saying the colors are off is something that you cant use as a base line at all as you have no clue if what you are seeing is what they really look like.

The base tan looks more off to me but, this shade can vary a lot due to lighting.

I will agree to one statement that Sometimes "gut" is all you have when judging some camo's It's not an exact science yet.

 

[Player11]

AGAIN.... spinning the truth. This helmet isn't being posted as an original its being posted for authentication. This is the major problem I have with you and your smear campaign of GHW.

NOW. it was sure bought as an original camo along with all the others Chuck has posted there. It was quickly dismissed as NOT one to buy.
My comments were I have seen others like this in High end collections and some like these and others don't.

Saying the colors are off is something that you cant use as a base line at all as you have no clue if what you are seeing is what they really look like.

The base tan looks more off to me but, this shade can vary a lot due to lighting.

I will agree to one statement that Sometimes "gut" is all you have when judging some camo's It's not an exact science yet.

Is very easy. Somebody sends him the pics to post them here, but doesnt tell him all the movie, just that!

 

[capt14k]

When it comes to colors and sheens photos alone can not be the be all end all. As shown with the Japanese Scabbard digital photos can show drastic differences. There are the factors of camera quality, camera setting, lighting, editing, and display the picture is being viewed on.

Here is a picture of a Hungarian 91/30 I own where the side of the rear sight looks in the White and it looks like the sight has been painted red. Neither are the case.

Due to the variables in digital pictures some items must be viewed in person to say for sure whether they are legit or Fake. However things like wear, spray pattern, etc can sometimes be viewed better with digital photos vs in hand at say a show because one has more time to study in detail the pictures.

So I can see how some helmets can be called fake from pictures, but other helmets that are called fake just due to color or sheen, helmets that some feel are real, need to be viewed in person and in hand. If a helmet is questionable from pics it really needs to be viewed in hand to confirm or deny it.

As for the statistics of Camo Helmets yes they can be used. With so many popping it can be very likely that 90% are fake.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Niblet]

So now its the digital pictures that are faulty,,,you guys are something else,,
probably the same guys that have a shelf full of sham-pain SS helmets that think maybe they were airbrushed during the war

 

[mauser99]

So now its the digital pictures that are faulty,,,you guys are something else,,
probably the same guys that have a shelf full of sham-pain SS helmets that think maybe they were airbrushed during the war

Using facts and showing examples of to prove it's a fact is how you argue a case. This has nothing to do with the Sham-pain ruse.

The sham wow decal was torn apart using technology called ADM... Till that point only loops were used. ADM has changed the decal game forever.


Discounting a camo due to "RAL colors being off" as he claims based off poor photos isn't cutting the mustard with a crowd with more than 2 brain cells.

We have minds of our owns and wont be swayed based off one chicken little's shrieks the sky is falling.... Sorry.


The bigger problem now Is most collectors with years under their belts don't want or need M45's advice.
New collectors after reading this thread would be so confused due to miss information wouldn't know where to start or end ???lol

All I can say is the member posting a helmet for constructive critique and actual authentication isn't posting them here. Nuff said.

 

[Niblet]

MAybe there was a discrenacy with Dougs microscope? was his scope ever certified for ADM?
maybe he doctored the ADM results? yeah thats it,,,the champagne runes have a chance at being period if you think like that Lol!

Thats how you guys are viewing these Camos,, you want them, need them to be authentic so you make every excuse in the book to discredit m45 and the simple
fact that 90% of the camos out there are just bogus

 

[mauser99]

MAybe there was a discrenacy with Dougs microscope? was his scope ever certified for ADM?
maybe he doctored the ADM results? yeah thats it,,,the champagne runes have a chance at being period if you think like that Lol!

Thats how you guys are viewing these Camos,, you want them, need them to be authentic so you make every excuse in the book to discredit m45 and the simple
fact that 90% of the camos out there are just bogus

Doug and others took down the Sham-wow rune with ADM. His research wasn't his alone. Its a shame he left the way he did but, that's what it came to.

A decal is made in a printing factory and has to comply with printing standards of the time.

Camo paint isn't a decal and cant be treated the same.

I also wouldn't advise any new collector getting into the hobby to start buying camo helmets either.

 

[capt14k]

So now its the digital pictures that are faulty,,,you guys are something else,,
probably the same guys that have a shelf full of sham-pain SS helmets that think maybe they were airbrushed during the war

I agree with most of what M45 has to say but yes digital pictures can make a big difference.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[M45]

AGAIN.... spinning the truth. This helmet isn't being posted as an original its being posted for authentication. This is the major problem I have with you and your smear campaign of GHW.

NOW. it was sure bought as an original camo along with all the others Chuck has posted there. It was quickly dismissed as NOT one to buy.
My comments were I have seen others like this in High end collections and some like these and others don't.

Saying the colors are off is something that you cant use as a base line at all as you have no clue if what you are seeing is what they really look like.

The base tan looks more off to me but, this shade can vary a lot due to lighting.

I will agree to one statement that Sometimes "gut" is all you have when judging some camo's It's not an exact science yet.

In my travels I am finding all sorts of interesting camos. I was asked to state where I am finding them and I think I have done that most of the time. 'GHW2' is where I found the camo. I then started to 'deconstruct' the camo aside from whatever GHW2's opinions were. So I'm not spinning anything. Yes, occasionally GHW2's camo opinions come up for discussion, but not every time.

I think I have made clear that what makes camos questionable are numerous factors, not just one. So as the 99% coverage is just one factor and not the kiss of death, so the strange RAL shades is just one factor. Remember what I said some time back, I add up all of the red flags to make a final assessment.

Yes digital photos have limitations and I acknowledge that. But also digital photos reveal many things, not just paint shades.


The above camo has issues;

-RAL appears off (red flag) possibly due to digital photo limitations, possibly due to the camo being fake

-It is a highly detailed exotic camo (work of art) and took time and effort to produce. The works of art certainly existed, but were few and far between compared to all camos IMO. Now dealers and forums are flooded with works of art (red flag)

-near 99% coverage (red flag). There are certainly originals that have survived with 99% coverage, but these are in the minority compared to all camos IMO. Remember, these are COMBAT HELMETS, not ornamental commemorative dinner plates. Camo fakers, while good at applying the fake paint, are not as good at distressing it in a believable manner. Thus they hold back on the wear and thus the rash of 99% camos.


So while digital photography has limitations and can distort colors, and while detailed exotic camos existed as per period photos, and while some camos have survived with 99% coverage, adding up the red flags on this single piece and considering the probability that such a rare gem could have survived the war in this condition with almost no combat wear without having been collected up decades ago into a high-end collection,

and of course considering that the hobby has been flooded with fakes with the same characteristic red flags as this one,

the probability that this camo could actually be authentic is extremely low, so low that I consider it to be a fake. Just like in mathematics, a number so close to zero can be considered zero, like .00000001.

When you find yourself adding up red flags on camos, this is a very bad sign. Original camos should ideally have NO red flags.

 

[Player11]

Thats how you guys are viewing these Camos,, you want them, need them to be authentic so you make every excuse in the book to discredit m45 and the simple
fact that 90% of the camos out there are just bogus

The problem comes when the pesron who discredit the camos has not idea of what he is talking about, for not speaking about, that still you know less than him

 

[Player11]

So while digital photography has limitations and can distort colors, and while detailed exotic camos existed as per period photos.

So you can identify camos for period pfotos???!!! in Black & White? what do you use X ray??!!! ( i love this last emoticon, i have found a lot of use with you)

 

[Niblet]

The problem comes when the pesron who discredit the camos has not idea of what he is talking about, for not speaking about, that still you know less than him

And all you can do is insult everyone who casts a bad light on your humped up items,,,

 

[Player11]

And all you can do is insult everyone who casts a bad light on your humped up items,,,

Ah no! Dont worry not everyone.... just two that dont have no idea of what they are talking about and think to know all watching pic

 

[Frank F.]

Just leaving this here: surrendering German troops and pristine camo'd helmets attached to their vehicles.

Germans streaming towards the American zone in Czechoslovakia, May 1945.





F.

 

[M45]

Thanks for posting those again Frank. I had been looking for them. Nice photos of period camos. They kind of look like the replicas, no ?

I think the way it works is that fakers view period photos of camos and then recreate them. The newly made camos then find their way 'out of the woodwork' into dealer's hands or onto helmet forums.

While generally applauded on forums as authentic, doubters are chastised by being shown period photos of pristine camos to justify the new creations.