Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
I've seen it at WAF where the falsehoods were perpetuated by censorship and banning of those who disagreed and tried to correct the falsities and misinformation. We don't do that here. No forum or site is free of misinformation. The point is to vet the information and test it with debate. What is stated here may be debated. I find that the position most rationally supported prevails here. If all sides have the opportunity to present their positions then that is about as good as it gets. If falsehoods exist, identify them and present contrary information and support.
Player11
Right Nad
I've seen it at WAF where the falsehoods were perpetuated by censorship and banning of those who disagreed and tried to correct the falsities and misinformation. We don't do that here. No forum or site is free of misinformation. The point is to vet the information and test it with debate. What is stated here may be debated. I find that the position most rationally supported prevails here. If all sides have the opportunity to present their positions then that is about as good as it gets. If falsehoods exist, identify them and present contrary information and support.
This is going to be "a non ending" history. So lets leave to M45 critizing the helmets he wants. Who cares?, the people who knows the matter know where and why M45 is where he is
End of my history.
I've seen it at WAF where the falsehoods were perpetuated by censorship and banning of those who disagreed and tried to correct the falsities and misinformation. We don't do that here. No forum or site is free of misinformation. The point is to vet the information and test it with debate. What is stated here may be debated. I find that the position most rationally supported prevails here. If all sides have the opportunity to present their positions then that is about as good as it gets. If falsehoods exist, identify them and present contrary information and support.
Ok
1. "Micro splatter"
2. "RAL"
3. "Too much paint coverage"
I'm sure there are plenty more.
Frank F.
Well-known member
Yes, thank you Craig. I've stated it a number of times: I do see value in this discussion, even if I am not on-board with everything that's being said. Brian is right: it's subjective. We are just looking at pictures on a computer after all.
What I appreciate most is that this discussion is forcing you to look closer at an artifact. Reading through the posts in this thread I found myself a number of times thinking 'I didn't notice that!' — something you won't get from pages of "Thumbs up!" "Stunner!" or "One looker!" I enjoy seeing things from a different perspective, even if I sometimes want to shout 'Step away from there!'
Agree that it would be nice if M45 and GHW could mend fences and some form of this discussion could take place there. I'd imagine it could lead to quite a bit of new insight.
That, or a bar brawl.
F.
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http://www.ghw2.com/topic/45612-medic-helmetsdid-they-exist/
The guys over on GHW tried really really hard to locate period photos of German medics wearing Red Cross helmets while NOT in clearly in custody as POWs. The pics more or less don't exist, or are so rare as to be comical. You see armbands, white ponchos, the occasional white helmet, but not the classic white helmet with a Red Cross. If they pretty much don't exist in period photos, where are they coming from? Where are the German photos of them in use? That's my gripe. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, of course, and I respect that.
The guys over on GHW tried really really hard to locate period photos of German medics wearing Red Cross helmets while NOT in clearly in custody as POWs. The pics more or less don't exist, or are so rare as to be comical. You see armbands, white ponchos, the occasional white helmet, but not the classic white helmet with a Red Cross. If they pretty much don't exist in period photos, where are they coming from? Where are the German photos of them in use? That's my gripe. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, of course, and I respect that.
Wow, very good point Nirvana and very good GHW2 thread. Some of those pics I had in my mind in my response to you and I had never put together the POW angle. Interesting!
M45
Well-known member
Thank you Deadeye. Differing opinions are permitted here because they help to broaden our understanding of our hobby. We don't always have to agree with everyone. And also, there is no agenda here that is being threatened by contrary opinions. Other venues I have found to have agendas, and when opinions run contrary to those agendas, there are warnings, censorship and banishments. Contrary opinions are seen as threats to be dealt with.
I have heard numerous collectors say how camos are a minefield and the hobby is full of fakes, etc...
but when questionable camos are posted with some applause, those same collectors will defer to critique. They will say things like, "well, if you're happy with it, then that's what counts".
And when I dare to critique those camos here, suddenly the thread has become a "train-wreck".
M45
Well-known member
NEW! Item 979 M38 Camouflaged Paratrooper helmet
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm
This may be the nicest Camo para that I have ever been able to offer. The pattern has long been associated with the German 6th FJ regiment due to existing specimens having been brought home by US 101st airborne veterans who got them in Carentan. But this one is positively IDentified as a 6th FJR helmet due to the name, rank and unit penned into the liner; Oberjager Reidl of II/6 (second battalion, 6th regiment). The shell is an ET71 with a 200 range lot number indicating production in 1940. It was factory finished as a single decal with textured paint. The camouflage was applied most likely in the spring of 1944 as units based in Normandie were preparing for the onslaught of the allies whom they reckoned would possess overwhelming air-superiority and hence literally everything that wasn't nailed down would have to be camouflaged. The Luftwaffe decal can be slightly seen at several points; most notably the tips of the wings and the swastika. The bolts have textured paint covering them and can easily bee seen to be undisturbed indicating that the helmet has not been post-war dismantled. The liner is extraordinary for it's condition and supple quality. The chinstrap harness is in likewise supple condition; being among the best that I have ever seen as far as condition. This helmet quite literally has it all; condition, component integrity and is named / unit identified to a regiment fighting in Normandy in the summer of 1944. Price $14250.00
Recent camo IMO. Spanner closeups reveal recent paint/woodchips over factory textured paint. Pristine woodchip texture can be seen on spanner #4. It looks like they rubbed the crown a bit too much during the distress phase; bare steel can be seen. This should be a dark rust patina found on originals. The penned marking is unconvincing IMO, making the 'positive identification' doubtful.
An M38 like this might sell for 3-4K with a worn decal ? But the highly desirable FJR-6 camo has more than tripled the value.
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm
This may be the nicest Camo para that I have ever been able to offer. The pattern has long been associated with the German 6th FJ regiment due to existing specimens having been brought home by US 101st airborne veterans who got them in Carentan. But this one is positively IDentified as a 6th FJR helmet due to the name, rank and unit penned into the liner; Oberjager Reidl of II/6 (second battalion, 6th regiment). The shell is an ET71 with a 200 range lot number indicating production in 1940. It was factory finished as a single decal with textured paint. The camouflage was applied most likely in the spring of 1944 as units based in Normandie were preparing for the onslaught of the allies whom they reckoned would possess overwhelming air-superiority and hence literally everything that wasn't nailed down would have to be camouflaged. The Luftwaffe decal can be slightly seen at several points; most notably the tips of the wings and the swastika. The bolts have textured paint covering them and can easily bee seen to be undisturbed indicating that the helmet has not been post-war dismantled. The liner is extraordinary for it's condition and supple quality. The chinstrap harness is in likewise supple condition; being among the best that I have ever seen as far as condition. This helmet quite literally has it all; condition, component integrity and is named / unit identified to a regiment fighting in Normandy in the summer of 1944. Price $14250.00
Recent camo IMO. Spanner closeups reveal recent paint/woodchips over factory textured paint. Pristine woodchip texture can be seen on spanner #4. It looks like they rubbed the crown a bit too much during the distress phase; bare steel can be seen. This should be a dark rust patina found on originals. The penned marking is unconvincing IMO, making the 'positive identification' doubtful.
An M38 like this might sell for 3-4K with a worn decal ? But the highly desirable FJR-6 camo has more than tripled the value.
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M45
Well-known member
NEW! Item 970 A pair of M42 single decal army helmets
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm
This is a fairly unique pair of helmets. They were not brought to the US by a single veteran but were sourced by me in two different places some two years apart from each other. (One came from North Carolina and the other from South dakota.) They are both Ckl64 helmet shells. They are both M42 single decal army helmets with 95% paint and 95% decal. Liner s are original, intact and sound. Chinstraps are original; one is marked and the other is not. Both have a name and feldpost number hand painted at the rear skirt. The feldpost number is from a mortar unit which was attached to the Cherbourg defenses in the spring of 1944. Although there is no information on the veteran (s) who brought these helmets home in 1945, it is pretty safe to assume that they were captured at the time that Cherbourg fell to the US VII corps (composed of the US 4th, 9th and 79th infantry divisions). One helmet belonged to a gefreiter and the other to an oberleutnant (who may indeed have been the company commander). The fact that they have been re-united here is by virtue of a remarkable coincidence. Individually, they are wonderful examples of completely honest combat helmets. Together, they make a display which is nothing less than extraordinary. Price for the pair is $4000.00
Two helmets, captured by two different vets, sourced separately from two different places some two years apart from each other, painted by two different soldiers some 7 decades ago who happen to have been stationed at Cherburg with the same Field Post number ?
Amazing what they are finding these days. Awfully bright/new looking paint for being some 70 years old. A handwriting expert would probably tell you these two inscriptions were painted by the same person. Notice near identical numbers and very similar lettering.
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm
This is a fairly unique pair of helmets. They were not brought to the US by a single veteran but were sourced by me in two different places some two years apart from each other. (One came from North Carolina and the other from South dakota.) They are both Ckl64 helmet shells. They are both M42 single decal army helmets with 95% paint and 95% decal. Liner s are original, intact and sound. Chinstraps are original; one is marked and the other is not. Both have a name and feldpost number hand painted at the rear skirt. The feldpost number is from a mortar unit which was attached to the Cherbourg defenses in the spring of 1944. Although there is no information on the veteran (s) who brought these helmets home in 1945, it is pretty safe to assume that they were captured at the time that Cherbourg fell to the US VII corps (composed of the US 4th, 9th and 79th infantry divisions). One helmet belonged to a gefreiter and the other to an oberleutnant (who may indeed have been the company commander). The fact that they have been re-united here is by virtue of a remarkable coincidence. Individually, they are wonderful examples of completely honest combat helmets. Together, they make a display which is nothing less than extraordinary. Price for the pair is $4000.00
Two helmets, captured by two different vets, sourced separately from two different places some two years apart from each other, painted by two different soldiers some 7 decades ago who happen to have been stationed at Cherburg with the same Field Post number ?
Amazing what they are finding these days. Awfully bright/new looking paint for being some 70 years old. A handwriting expert would probably tell you these two inscriptions were painted by the same person. Notice near identical numbers and very similar lettering.
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mauser99
Senior Member
Another way to boost profits on average helmets IMHO.. Feldpost to a desirable hot spot. = $$$$$$$
A photo like this is a "maybe." There are no weapons or armed soldiers in the frame. It's not from the German archives with an attribution. It may be taken with German film on a German camera and developed in Germany, but a lot of GI's had cameras and so on like this. It's just hard to say.
Looks like an Italian M.40 style collar or a German tropicbluse. It is not an allied collar of a combat uniform I am familiar with. Guess is as set forth. I do not believe that there would be an allied system across fronts whereby captured Germans would wear red cross aprons, have their helmets painted white, with red crosses, armbands, and then be required to run loose policing the battlefield and working in hospitals. All of that requires too much explanation.
A better explanation is that these are German issue requirements for German medics and sanitation troops who, during local truces, policed the battlefields of wounded while allied troops did the same. There was necessarily cooperation, and on the western front they would have been unarmed and look like POWs perhaps. Or, perhaps after a battle, after the treatment of the policing, transportation, and triage/battlefield treatment of wounded they would have been made POWs. Thus, what we may be seeing are German medic POWs, but they weren't captured, made medics, given white helmets by the allies with red crosses, and sent back out. They would have been doing end of battle treatment of wounded, German wounded, allowed to finish, then taken as POWs.
