Questionable Camos

[Player11]

We all know full well that my condemnation of "real" camos is just my opinion, correct ?

The difference IMO is that I have given fairly detailed analysis of these "real" camos that reveal numerous red flags. The promoters, on the other hand, can not give much more analysis than, "WOW! One-lOOker!, Dream Helmet, Stunning Original, etc..

Thats correct YOUR opinion, YOUR red flag, as you say, you cant give nothing that hilarious analisys.

 

[M45]

GHW2 Jewish Brigade. Well accepted by forum members, this is a total fantasy piece IMO.

Interesting information about a rare unit is posted, and the helmet to go along with it. Amazing how that happens.

Near 100% coverage despite heavy rim wear. One vent shows heavy wear, the other with the insignia does not. Well worn liner indicates a good choice for 'restoration'.

IWF has been known to feature questionable tropical helmets. Last helmet an original tropical IMO.

 

[Nzef1940]

I think it's kosher (no pun intended!).

 

[M45]

Come off it, Nzef. How ultra-rare do you have to get to convince you that something is fake ? This example has got to be the only one known to exist in the collecting world. The next thing you know, GHW2 will host an ultra-rare SS Fallshirmjaeger Battalion 500 SD SS M38 helmet (a wire/painted camo or ghosted, mind you at near 100%), and you will be all over it.

I'm starting to suspect that you will vet just about any piece of junk that comes out of the wood-work. If forums start doing that, they are irrelevant to serious camo collectors IMO.

 

[Nzef1940]

I disagree re this lid, you are doing it again, condemning good as bad.

I suspect that based on this thread you get it right 60% and plain wrong 40%.

 

[Player11]

I disagree re this lid, you are doing it again, condemning good as bad.

I suspect that based on this thread you get it right 60% and plain wrong 40%.

What can you spect from somebody who only judges the helmet for the pics.
That helmet is good, you have to invest things just to have your minute of glory.
Your base as camo expert is frágil, without enough knowledge to see it, all is fake because you can't recognise anything at all.

 

[Nzef1940]

M45 you where also 100% wrong re the ex net Normandy camo you wrongly 'outed' from GHW...

 

[Frank F.]

What can you spect from somebody who only judges the helmet for the pics.
That helmet is good, you have to invest things just to have your minute of glory.
Your base as camo expert is frágil, without enough knowledge to see it, all is fake because you can't recognise anything at all.

Player: give it a rest already.

There's no need to get personal each and every time you see something you don't agree with. If you have a counter argument make it, don't just attack the individual. Nobody is forcing you to read any of this.

F.

 

[Hambone]

From the pics, I like the underlying tropical helmet under the Star of David. Of course, I would like to have it in hand.

 

[capt14k]

Player: give it a rest already.

There's no need to get personal each and every time you see something you don't agree with. If you have a counter argument make it, don't just attack the individual. Nobody is forcing you to read any of this.

F.

Seriously Player11 it is getting old. Add some value. Explain why you think it is real. The juvenile personal attacks are not impressing anyone.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Frank F.]

From the pics, I like the underlying tropical helmet under the Star of David. Of course, I would like to have it in hand.

It really does look like it all belongs together. When and why it was made is anyone's guess. A yellow star? The "Judenstern?" THE symbol of hate? I kinda doubt a Jewish soldier would create something like that, but it's the first I've heard about them as well.

And that's why I like these kind of threads...

F.

 

[M45]

Yes Captain, it's getting old, very very old. But it at least helps to understand what is happening and why it is happening.

My opinion: Some people have "agendas" in this hobby. This is usually a bad thing for straight shooting collectors. We know there has been a flood of fake camo helmets to hit the hobby in recent years. We know that much money is being made off of selling fake camos for original prices to unsuspecting collectors.

If we were bad guys (which we are not) we might get into this fake camo racket by knowingly promoting fake camos on helmet forums. This may serve to help our friends who are trying to sell these things and throw a monkey wrench into collector understanding of standards of authenticity. This way, more of the fake camos we promote will likely be accepted as authentic if nobody knows any better.

And if members disagreed with our vettings with clear and concise explanations of why they are fake, we would probably not want to waste time trying to defend them but rather go on the attack. We harass, attack and bad-mouth anyone who opposes us. We keep up the pressure until hopefully those who disagree with us just give up and leave us victorious on the battlefield.

 

[Hambone]

It really does look like it all belongs together. When and why it was made is anyone's guess. A yellow star? The "Judenstern?" THE symbol of hate? I kinda doubt a Jewish soldier would create something like that, but it's the first I've heard about them as well.

And that's why I like these kind of threads...

F.

Frank, I think it could have been "soldier art" by a Jewish soldier with the US or Commonwealth. I don't know that it would have been a German military helmet used by Jews. Immediate postwar they were wearing Commonwealth Mk.IIs and such. I like the underlying helmet and there is no benefit to painting that on a good tropical helmet.
Cheers,
HB

 

[Frank F.]

Frank, I think it could have been "soldier art" by a Jewish soldier with the US or Commonwealth. I don't know that it would have been a German military helmet used by Jews. Immediate postwar they were wearing Commonwealth Mk.IIs and such. I like the underlying helmet and there is no benefit to painting that on a good tropical helmet.
Cheers,
HB

Honestly: I doubt it. I know a lot of German equipment was used in 1948. I am certain the "Gelber Stern" would not be something in the repourtoire of Jewish fighters.

Vet art? Maybe, but why?

F.

 

[dagoromagna]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/45612-medic-helmetsdid-they-exist/


The guys over on GHW tried really really hard to locate period photos of German medics wearing Red Cross helmets while NOT in clearly in custody as POWs. The pics more or less don't exist, or are so rare as to be comical. You see armbands, white ponchos, the occasional white helmet, but not the classic white helmet with a Red Cross. If they pretty much don't exist in period photos, where are they coming from? Where are the German photos of them in use? That's my gripe. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, of course, and I respect that.

Wow, very good point Nirvana and very good GHW2 thread. Some of those pics I had in my mind in my response to you and I had never put together the POW angle. Interesting!

I'm the one who started that thread.
And I'm the one who owns the M42 NS Medic that was, here, condemned as fake.
I found little period photo evidence of white helmets with red crosses worn during frontline duties by the Germans.
Russians didn't sign Geneva Convention and fired against sanitaters, so the Germans had plain helmets (like the Q64 reissue I have,named to a Sanitater).
I saw several pics of German POWs with White Painted Red Cross helmets, helping comrades and Allies after surrender.
Why the White helmets? Maybe not to be executed for being in German Uniform by victorious troops (It happened, we all know...the Germans didn't have the exclusivity on wickedness), maybe to be immediately recognized as trained useful personnel.
I asked a FJ Vet during one of the last Militaria Fairs while presenting a book on his memoirs while fighting in Cassino about Sanitaters and their helmets, he remembered the Red Cross brassards but not helmets with Red Cross.
I was in Guernsey Museums and saw several White Painted helmets exposed, in those Channel Islands there were several Hospitals, definitely second line-rear echelon troops.
I think I own a (probably, who knows FOR SURE?) period painted POW-rear echelon Medic helmet AND a real frontline Sanitater helmet.

My Best to all.

G.

 

[M45]

G, as per period photos, white painted medic helmets were super rare throughout the war, probably making their first big appearance in late 44-45 on the Western Front.

Probably so few were brought back as war booty that any floating around in the early decades of collecting were snapped-up in a hurry. In my 40 years of collecting, I do not recall seeing a believable one at shows or anywhere.

So now in the 2010 decade they are starting to "show up" ? Where is the rock-solid vet provenance with yours ? A rare helmet like that should have good traceable lines. A picker found it ? Not very reassuring.

The story is that a dealer had procured a bunch of postwar white painted helmets. If these had been rattling around for awhile, they would pick up some dings and scrapes. The red cross on yours looks pretty new.


This is one of the very few medic helmets which I judged as real from the second I laid my eyes on it. - Ken N.

What is the basis for this statement by Ken concerning your helmet ? Judged as real ? Since these are so gawd-awful rare, how does he know what a real one looks like ? How in the world did his picker find one without any vet provenance whatsoever ? It just appeared.

These are the type of helmets that can be replicated all day long. I would expect that more of these postwar white painted helmets will grow red crosses and be "found" by pickers in the years to come.

 

[dagoromagna]

Brian,
I am an open minded Collector.
My helmet was found in 2012 in Florida by a picker.
I can contact him to know more.

I don't trust KenN, I don't think that he's right Always nor I think he's Crystal clear honest.
That helmet should have been passed directly from the US Collector who bought the helmet from the picker to me.
It happened that that Collector, despite several mails I wrote him for selling the helmet to me, sold the helmet to Ken (to have directly the USD? For overseas shpping fear? Who knows...)
So the KenN-passage is a random event.
I said this not to change your mind on the helmet but to free your mind by other elements (i.e. a known fight between you and K, a matter I don't care of)
I appreciate your analysis but sometimes I find you too much sure of your positions and not very open to other points of view.
I do respect your years in Collecting and research (yes, I bought your book from Ebay some years ago and I remember your nickname and your ND helmets for sale back then...).

We must admit that even if an helmet shows signs of abuse and a faded Red Cross this does not make it more original than mine.
Let's say that MORE Collector's could be confortable with abuse sign than the obverse.

This is not a fakery denial, that began right after the war, mostly in US, when kids were playing war...

 

[Hambone]

Honestly: I doubt it. I know a lot of German equipment was used in 1948. I am certain the "Gelber Stern" would not be something in the repourtoire of Jewish fighters.

Vet art? Maybe, but why?

F.

Vet art by a Jewish GI to indicate the triumph of a Jewish GI over a Nazi perhaps. Who knows. Could be the work of a Jewish kid in the 60s just assing about with a helmet he found in the garbage or at a garage sale for $1. I don't think it was any kind of combat formation. Just my unsubstantiated opinions and shooting angles

 

[Frank F.]

Vet art by a Jewish GI to indicate the triumph of a Jewish GI over a Nazi perhaps. Who knows. Could be the work of a Jewish kid in the 60s just assing about with a helmet he found in the garbage or at a garage sale for $1. I don't think it was any kind of combat formation. Just my unsubstantiated opinions and shooting angles

And that's just it. We are all just shooting in the dark.

F.

 

[nirvana]

And that's just it. We are all just shooting in the dark.

F.

Pretty much. It's a random and unknown helmet with no apparent or verifiable connection to anything. Perhaps it belonged to a bizarre biker? Absent anything, it's not something that has much value to me. It's just a helmet with a star.