Third Party Press

Questionable Camos

GHW2 red cross. Yellow underneath white. Bright red cross, scratched info (a nice touch). The damaged liner made this a good choice for a 'restoration'. A decent attempt at patina. Two photos shaded ? Commonly done to tone down the bright white.

Once the rarest of the rare re: field modified, now it seems everybody has one or knows someone with one.
 

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Once the rarest of the rare re: field modified, now it seems everybody has one or knows someone with one.

Im not sure if appart of copying the pics there, you have noticed that most people its doubting about it. Even in my last reply i added it.
Are you so blind?
 
Im not sure if appart of copying the pics there, you have noticed that most people its doubting about it. Even in my last reply i added it.
Are you so blind?

Player:

Your ad hominem are getting a bit tiresome. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Trust me: it works! I've tried it — right here in this thread.

F.
 
LOL, so M45 gets the decal wrong on the winter Camo and says winter camos were re used and scrubbed clean since the war ended in the Spring of 45? What about the ones captured in the Winter.

If it weren't so easy to dismiss most of M45's "evaluations" maybe he would be taken more seriously.
 
LOL, so M45 gets the decal wrong on the winter Camo and says winter camos were re used and scrubbed clean since the war ended in the Spring of 45? What about the ones captured in the Winter.

If it weren't so easy to dismiss most of M45's "evaluations" maybe he would be taken more seriously.

Marc:

Not giving anyone a free pass but I am tired of these third grade bits of insulting someone.

Got a point? Make it and not retreat to this "You so stoopid!" level.

F.
 
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M45;191071 [I said:
I felt I gave some pretty good points about this helmet and painted snow camos in general. Very few exist in collections today probably because the war ended in late spring 1945 after the snow had melted. Former white wash helmets had their whitewash scrubbed off. Former snow camos were reissued with slategray or green gray. These have been posted on this thread previously. Most untouched painted white originals have been collected up long ago.[/I]


Frank, I think that's a reasonable request.

Come to think about it, there really wasn't any big opportunity for Western Allied forces to acquire German snow camos.

Afrika Campaign: little snow
Italian Campaign: little snow.
Normandy breakout to German border: little snow
Southern France offensive to German border: little snow.

During the first part of the Battle of the Bulge the Allies were being pushed back. (little opportunity to acquire souvenirs)
The last part of the Battle the Germans were pushed back into Germany, no big surrender piles with painted white snow camos. (little opportunity to acquire souvenirs)

As spring arrived, most former snow camos were reissued or had whitewash scrubbed off.

And considering German snow camos in general, white painted ones were in the minority, IMO. White hoods, camo covers (issue and makeshift) and whitewash was probably much more common (much easier to return to a standard finish after snow had melted).

During the mass surrenders in April-May 1945, most painted snow camos had been reissued by this time for obvious reasons. That bright white helmet was a target.

I don't even count Russian Front helmets.

White painted snow camos were rare in May 1945. The rare stuff tended to get collected up over the decades.

The result: very few originals floating around today.
 

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Marc:

Not giving anyone a free pass but I am tired of these third grade bits of insulting someone.

Got a point? Make it and not retreat to this "You so stoopid!" level.

F.

I just gave you two legit examples,what are you talking about?

Are we supposed to take someone seriously who can't identify decals?And say something as naive as Winter camos were repurposed so they aren't any around?

I made my point VERY clearly Frank with 2 FACTS.There is no "retreat" nor did I call him " stooped".

Why are you defending him?
 
Player:

Your ad hominem are getting a bit tiresome. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Trust me: it works! I've tried it — right here in this thread.

F.

Frank, with all my respet to you, my good manners are reserved for those whose deserve them. Brian Ice is not one of those person im speaking about
 
Frank, I think that's a reasonable request.

Come to think about it, there really wasn't any big opportunity for Western Allied forces to acquire snow camos.

Afrika Campaign: little snow
Italian Campaign: little snow.
Normandy breakout to German border: little snow
Southern France offensive to German border: little snow.

During the first part of the Battle of the Bulge the Allies were being pushed back. (little opportunity to acquire souvenirs)
The last part of the Battle the Germans were pushed back into Germany, no big surrender piles with painted white snow camos. (little opportunity to acquire souvenirs)

As spring arrived, most former snow camos were reissued or had whitewash scrubbed off.

And considering German snow camos in general, white painted ones were in the minority, IMO. White hoods, camo covers (issue and makeshift) and whitewash was probably much more common (much easier to return to a standard finish after snow had melted).

During the mass surrenders in April-May 1945, most painted snow camos had been reissued by this time for obvious reasons. That bright white helmet was a target.

I don't even count Russian Front helmets.

White painted snow camos were rare in May 1945. The rare stuff tended to get collected up over the decades.

The result: very few originals floating around today.


Here we go again :facepalm:
Think again, except the invasion of France, allied had little opporunities to get DD, why, at the end of the war, so many DD have survived when as per regulation of 21th of March from 1940, tricolor decals and apple green paint should be removed / recovered. How is possible that after the regulation of 1942 M40 Sd decals helmet have survived until our days?. And after all the decals were removed?. Every M35s that have reach to our days are faked due that:

Afrika Campaign:little DD ( most covered with tan paint)
Italian Campaign: little DD ( most covered with Mediterranean camo)
Normandy Campaign to German border: little DD ( most M42), when i have seen some DD with Normandy camo.
i dont even count Russia front.

True that many winter camos are poping out there, but not for the reason you mean, since that is only an opinion that thing about " snow melted" :facepalm::thumbsup::laugh:

And as Snow time, autumn time came later... Why so many pristine DD around here?, fakes?

:hail::hail:You have me on my knees :hail::hail:
 
The snow camo issue is entirely different from the decal issue (DD, SD).


"In the Spring of 1940, all "frontline" combat trooprs were ordered to remove the highly visible national colors and party shield transfers from their helmets. These transfers were either scraped off or painted over. This order did not apply to supply troops, engineers, garrison troops, or any other rear echelon soldiers."

"A subsequent order was issued in November 1943 which required that all "frontline" combat troops remove the service branch transfers from their helmets, but this order was not strictly adhered to."

'German Helmets 1933-1945 A collector's Guide' Gooodapple, Maertz p.26


These decal orders were only for front line troops and were not strictly adhered to. The orders did not even apply to rear echelon troops (essentially all others not front line). So of course there are many DD and SD helmets that have survived. There are also many that were made compliant with the orders (national shield removed, service branch insignia removed).
 
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LOL, so M45 gets the decal wrong on the winter Camo and says winter camos were re used and scrubbed clean since the war ended in the Spring of 45? What about the ones captured in the Winter.

If it weren't so easy to dismiss most of M45's "evaluations" maybe he would be taken more seriously.


OMG !! you got me there! The decal issue was minor IMO. It IS a reissue decal, just not a Pocher. (I'm not saying the decal is bad, just that the helmet is a reissue.)

Yes, no doubt there were some white painted snow camos captured during winter fighting, but as I detailed above, these opportunities were comparatively rare. If you ever marched around as a soldier you would realize that a German helmet is heavy/bulky and not something you would want to hoof around for a long time. Most war booty/helmet collecting was probably near and after the end of the war up to about September 1945 involving the mass surrender piles. By this time, most former snow camos had been returned to issue condition (snow covers removed, whitewash scrubbed, painted white camos reissued/repainted).

re: red cross helmets, I think very few were actually white painted; most you see today are forgeries. Once again, the good stuff was collected up long ago.
 

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More Red Cross photos. Some white helmets are without a red cross.
 

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OMG !! you got me there! The decal issue was minor IMO. It IS a reissue decal, just not a Pocher. (I'm not saying the decal is bad, just that the helmet is a reissue.)

Yes, no doubt there were some white painted snow camos captured during winter fighting, but as I detailed above, these opportunities were comparatively rare. If you ever marched around as a soldier you would realize that a German helmet is heavy/bulky and not something you would want to hoof around for a long time. Most war booty/helmet collecting was probably near and after the end of the war up to about September 1945 involving the mass surrender piles. By this time, most former snow camos had been returned to issue condition (snow covers removed, whitewash scrubbed, painted white camos reissued/repainted).

re: red cross helmets, I think very few were actually white painted; most you see today are forgeries. Once again, the good stuff was collected up long ago.


You do realize most of your "facts" are just opinions,right?

Getting the decal wrong is a minor issue?

If so then how are we to take your opinion on what's original and what's not?

Isn't decal identification easier than Camo?
 
You do realize most of your "facts" are just opinions,right?

Getting the decal wrong is a minor issue?

If so then how are we to take your opinion on what's original and what's not?

Isn't decal identification easier than Camo?


I suppose opinions backed up by period photos are a bit better than, "we like the helmet, it belongs to our friend, and we know where he got it".

I think a big issue with you guys is when snow melted in 1945 Germany. Go to the net and look through period photos of VE day Germany and see if there was much snow on the ground. If there wasn't any snow, why would there have been piles of snow camos laying all around ?

http://www.mapleleafup.ca/ve2.html
 

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I suppose opinions backed up by period photos. A bit better than, "we like the helmet, it belongs to our friend, and we know where he got it".

I think a big issue with you guys is when snow melted in 1945 Germany. Go to the net and look through period photos of VE day Germany and see if there is much snow on the ground. If there isn't any snow, why would there be piles of snow camos laying all around ?

http://www.mapleleafup.ca/ve2.html

Who said there would be snow camos laying around?

Why do you assume they were picked up then?

Many were left behind in Norway also.Many were picked up and sent home.

Your point makes no sense? You post a couple of pictures of capture piles War end and it explains your dislike for snow camos posted ...
 
Someone posts a questionable helmet. It gets questioned. Then they mention that it came from Norway. Oops....now it's original. Some of the turds getting passed off are embarrassing.
 
You do realize most of your "facts" are just opinions,right?

Getting the decal wrong is a minor issue?

If so then how are we to take your opinion on what's original and what's not?

Isn't decal identification easier than Camo?


Oh NO! Nirvana, if I made a mistake on a reissue decal, how can you ever trust me with anything I have ever said and will say about helmets ?

My idea with the period surrender photos was to show that there probably were not many if any white painted snow camos available as war booty for the bulk of Allied forces to bring home. No doubt there were a few taken during the Winter fighting of 44-45, but I believe white paint was not the preferred method of snow camo, so these would have been uncommon even then, IMO.

The bulk of Allied forces were not in Norway to acquire painted white snow camos. Most German helmets in Norway were reworked for the Norwegian Armed Forces postwar. This usually involved removing all WWII era paint.

So, history has plotted to deny most western collectors the privilege of owning an original white painted German snow camo. The vast majority seen today are forgeries.

The former occupied countries have become a hotbed for postwar fakes, Norway included.

Camo forgers are apparently not aware of the extreme rarity of original white painted snow camos, they just add them to their list of fake camos to produce en mass such as; tropical tan, geometrics, 3 color Normandys, Italian campaign turtle shell, red cross, KM coastal artillery, wood-chip camos, concrete/zimmerit camos, tiger stripe, SS polka dots, Heer water pattern camo, funky swirls and hearts, and of course white painted snow camos.
 
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Oh NO! Nirvana, if I made a mistake on a reissue decal, how can you ever trust me with anything I have ever said and will say about helmets ?

My idea with the period surrender photos was to show that there probably were not many if any white painted snow camos available as war booty for the bulk of Allied forces to bring home. No doubt there were a few taken during the Winter fighting of 44-45, but I believe white paint was not the preferred method of snow camo, so these would have been uncommon even then, IMO.

The bulk of Allied forces were not in Norway to acquire painted white snow camos. Most German helmets in Norway were reworked for the Norwegian Armed Forces postwar. This usually involved removing all WWII era paint.

So, history has plotted to deny most western collectors the privilege of owning an original white painted German snow camo. The vast majority seen today are forgeries.

The former occupied countries have become a hotbed for postwar fakes, Norway included.

Camo forgers are apparently not aware of the extreme rarity of original white painted snow camos, they just add them to their list of fake camos to produce en mass such as; tropical tan, geometrics, 3 color Normandys, Italian campaign turtle shell, red cross, KM coastal artillery, wood-chip camos, concrete/zimmerit camos, and of course white painted snow camos.


This is the problem with your "analysis" you use words in the above quote such as "I believe" and "probably " all the time.

This gives your "analysis" little meaning.

I'll give you credit , you certainly have a different angle on justifying "fakes"

You can't possibly prove anything you just said.

Seriously,I can dismiss your Norway assessment right off.

1. You say the bulk of Allie weren't in Norway, no shite.
2.How does that affect collectible German winter camos?You think all were sent home by GI's.

Go read some stories on how and where helmets of all kinds are collected.
 
And where are "all of these camos coming from all the sudden"

They aren't.

If you look at the amount of REAL camos posted on WAF and Wahallah I would say the percentage of camos shown is less than 5% of all helmets produced.
 

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