Third Party Press

Questionable Camos

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Compare to the Hetzer.
 

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Compare to the Hetzer.

Interesting! Definitely not the standard "Hinterhalt Tarnung." I've enlarged the pic, the Jagdpanzer 38 is the one in the lower left.

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I actually like that particular helmet. I have nowhere the experience of you Gents, but I would not dismiss it based on a few pics. It is not your usual combat helmet.

F.
 
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http://www.germanmilitariacollectibles.com/classifieds_detail.asp?classified_ID=57051

Camo Coastal Artillery Helmet Kriegsmarine (NS64 DN35)

WWII original coastal artillery camo helmet. Liner is crispy and smaller in size. Chinstrap is in alright shape. Awesome original camo! Gold Kriegsmarine shield at 80%+. PayPal add 3% or send funds as gift.

Asking Price: 500.00 USD (Will Consider Offers)

A total pile of crap fake decal ect... One being real one being fake. I know Dave Wyatt personally and know when and where he bought the helmet. But, I know what's thought here. Anonymous random people fake camo's sell them for next to nothing just to disrupt and infiltrate the camo market and build a false data base for what real camo's should look like ???

Quite the scam.. I think M45 should go back looking for Nessie or Big foot as those theories are more believable.

Dave's lid is a classic KM coastal artillery helmet and he didn't even know what it was till I told him and tracked the lot # to another ckl 3288 KM shell I knew the owner of.. I will thank M45 for the lot# info as GHW had No KM's listed. Maybe his book does ? I know of two other similar camo's linked to KM coastal batteries in southern France.
 
A total pile of crap fake decal ect... One being real one being fake. I know Dave Wyatt personally and know when and where he bought the helmet. But, I know what's thought here. Anonymous random people fake camo's sell them for next to nothing just to disrupt and infiltrate the camo market and build a false data base for what real camo's should look like ???

Quite the scam.. I think M45 should go back looking for Nessie or Big foot as those theories are more believable.


Dave's lid is a classic KM coastal artillery helmet and he didn't even know what it was till I told him and tracked the lot # to another ckl 3288 KM shell I knew the owner of.. I will thank M45 for the lot# info as GHW had No KM's listed. Maybe his book does ? I know of two other similar camo's linked to KM coastal batteries in southern France.



I take it the underlined portion is what you think I think, and you disapprove ? I don't doubt that you know Dave personally and know when and where he bought the helmet. Everything seems to match, except the paint on the liner pins, or lack thereof. It is clear to me the liner has been swapped out, or even more disturbing, the liner was out when the camo was applied (there never were any pins with matching paint). So your prized KM coastal or Hetzer crew camo (whichever it is) is a parts helmet. A very bad sign.


I know what's thought here. Anonymous random people fake camo's sell them for next to nothing just to disrupt and infiltrate the camo market and build a false data base for what real camo's should look like ???


You said it, I didn't. But why is that so impossible ? Of course anonymous people are faking camos, of course they are injecting them into the hobby by a variety of means, of course fake camos have picked up vet provenance, COAs, ownership histories, are found in textbooks and are posted and well liked on forums. Of course they are faking them cheaply (certainly not for cost of originals). As Gunkraut said, many fake camos probably enter the hobby by being sold for far below their 'original' value but for much more than the movie-props they actually are. In light of this possibility, such fakers are making tidy profits, delighting camo collectors with great deals on 'woodwork finds', and dazzling their forum friends with their dream helmets.
 
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There are certainly substantial profits to be made in the camo fabrication business. If we take a low dollar helmet with well worn components and apply some camo paint and wire, we can make many times our original investment, especially if we do things the right way like garnering some ownership history, vet association, COA paperwork etc... The 'Normandy wire' below is IMO nothing more than a $500 restoration but it had picked up an ownership history ( Ken N., DougB, Ruptured Duck) and was for sale for $12,500. That's $12,000 pure profit if I have my math correct. This is an extreme example but illustrates that huge profits are to be made on gullible camo collectors.

We have many options for our creation; low$$$ helmet + innertube band + cluck-wire basket + camo paint, then remove wire and inner tube. We can do a popular Normandy 3-color scheme as long as we have correct RAL paint, or we can study period B&W and color photos of German camo helmets to know what was actually done and copy that, like KM coastal artillery or Hetzer crew for example.
 

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A total pile of crap fake decal ect... One being real one being fake.


So one is fake and one is real, and it's real because you know the person who bought it and when and where it was purchased ?

Mauser, you're being distracted by peripheral details, common in camo collecting. Peripheral details are those other than the helmet itself, like COAs, ownership histories, vet acquisition stories, published in textbooks, the friends involved and the story of how they acquired it, etc...

Looking at the helmet itself, I do see similarities between the two. Of course the one being a parts helmet does not help.
 

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A total pile of crap fake decal ect... One being real one being fake.


So one is fake and one is real, and it's real because you know the person who bought it and when and where it was purchased ?

Mauser, you're being distracted by peripheral details, common in camo collecting. Peripheral details are those other than the helmet itself, like COAs, ownership histories, vet acquisition stories, published in textbooks, the friends involved and the story of how they acquired it, etc...

Looking at the helmet itself, I do see similarities between the two. Of course the one being a parts helmet does not help.

No Im using facts and if I didn't know the facts I wouldn't waste my time. Im sure the couple he bought it from in there mid 60's was all about faking camo's.

He didn't even know what it was till I saw it and told him and matched it to a ckl KM shell. Ckl Km's are very scarce and NOT a low end helmet worth slapping a fake camo job on.. All you points don't add up here. I understand your points and concerns thanks for watching out for us all..
 
Ckl Km's are very scarce and NOT a low end helmet worth slapping a fake camo job on..



You are thinking like a logical collector and that can be a bad thing. We have seen all sorts of helmets upgraded to increase value, high end (SS, M38s) mid grade (SD Heer, Luft, Police) and lower end (factory NDs, reissues, well beat helmets). What I'm saying is, that fact that it's a factory KM does not make for a logical argument, ( re: nobody would screw up a rare ckl M42 KM helmet).

Greed knows no bounds. Fakers are not concerned that history is being lost every time they upgrade something. To them it's all about $$$$. When we understand that, much else comes into focus.

It's kind of like the collector logic that says, 'the camo looks so bad no faker would do such a thing, therefore it must be authentic'.
 
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GHW2 WHITE painted snow camo SD Heer.

Fantastic white painted snow camo!! Wait a minute.... let's stop and think about this. Nearly every white painted snow camo ever posted has been a fake. So how did such a rare helmet escape being reissued in Spring '45 ?

Also, no serious wear patina to factory finish and bare metal like the RK helmet. Also, it is an ET M35 with a Pocher Heer decal, not factory IMO.

EDIT: It is a Methner & Berger reissue decal - my bad.

Also, helmet is being posted with other exquisite camos, all with near 99% paint coverage. Shouldn't that consistent 99% paint coverage make us suspicious ?

In Ken N.'s decal book, he talks about how he knew C-SS was a fraud. One way was that every C-SS was near 99% condition, none with 10%, 50% etc... coverage.

Looking at the condition of many of these camos recently appearing, coverage is near 99% pretty consistently. Aren't you suspicious of that, so many with that 'used but not abused look that collectors like to see' ?


So to answer the question: "Where are all of these guys FINDING all of these bang-on rare, exotic camos, all in near 99% condition ??

Answer: they are not original.
 

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You are posting here two diferents helmets, if fake for you, you should explain why?. One of them, belongs to a good friends, have all detailed pics on my pc and, for me, its a very good one.
You post helmets here because you dont know how to be in the first line, just for that.
Explain me What is wrong there?, even we i keep my idea that reading you is a completely waste of time.
 
GHW2 WHITE painted snow camo SD Heer.

Fantastic white painted snow camo!! Wait a minute.... let's stop and think about this. Nearly every white painted snow camo ever posted has been a fake. So how did such a rare helmet escape being reissued in Spring '45 ?

Also, no serious wear patina to factory finish and bare metal like the RK helmet. Also, it is an ET M35 with a Pocher Heer decal, not factory IMO.


look deeper, did you realize that is a Methner&Burger not a Pocher ?
 
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/offers-acce...429367?hash=item41c26761b7:g:T1MAAOSwzqFY8kmo

offers accepted! ORIGINAL GERMAN M42 STAHLHELM HELMET EF64

offered is an original German M42 helmet in what looks like a size 64. the shell is made by Emaillierwerke A.G. factory in the city of Fulda as is evident from the light stamping of the maker mark and batch number. the liner, made by B & C in the city of Litzmannstadt in 1943, is original to the shell and has never been removed since it was installed at the factory. the outside has been spray-painted a rare patch camo and the inside has had an application of a lighter green. i don't know when this was done but it looks authentic and has no fresh paint smell whatsoever; if original then you will be getting a bargain. the shell is in solid condition with no dents, holes or cracks. i will consider reasonable buy it now offers. i will ship anywhere in the world. international shipping fees will vary. please see pictures for condition and thank you for looking.


Price:
US $779.00 Buy It Now


OK Mauser, I know we haven't exactly been getting along lately, so I'm going to make up for it. I found you an ultra-rare Waffen-SS dot pattern camo M42. Trust me when I say these are the rarest of the rare re: camos. As the seller says, we don't know exactly when this was painted, but it looks authentic and has no fresh paint smell whatsoever (what more can you ask for?). And if authentic, you will be getting one HECK of a bargain !!

All you need to do is add a liner ($150?), post it on GHW2 and I can almost guarantee this helmet will be the talk of the forum.

And if someone tells you that it's fake, tell them that camos are subjective; it's all about how you FEEL about it. If you have good gut FEELINGS and you like it, that's what is really important. Tell them that the Germans used a wide variety of methods and materials to camouflage their helmets, so really ANYTHING is possible. (I recall seeing a period photo of one of these Dot-SS camos)

And if the helmet actually turns out to be fake, well you spent about $700 too much for a $79 movie prop. Live and learn as they say.

My advice: spend more time on the k98k Questionable Camos thread and less time on GHW2. : 0
 

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M45 can you please go back to giving detailed analysis rather than just posting pics and saying they are fake. Even though I never plan on collecting Camo Helmets I always enjoy learning. Plus by doing so you will force Player11 to respond intelligently with his counter argument why he thinks it is real.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
You are posting here two diferents helmets, if fake for you, you should explain why?. One of them, belongs to a good friends, have all detailed pics on my pc and, for me, its a very good one.
You post helmets here because you dont know how to be in the first line, just for that.
Explain me What is wrong there?, even we i keep my idea that reading you is a completely waste of time.


Captain, I don't think Player11 is here to respond intelligently, although he has had many opportunities.

RE: the white snow camo above, Player11 says it belongs to his good friend, he has detailed pics on his PC and to him it is a very good camo. That's about the extent of his position on it.

I felt I gave some pretty good points about this helmet and painted snow camos in general. Very few exist in collections today probably because the war ended in late spring 1945 after the snow had melted. Former white wash helmets had their whitewash scrubbed off. Former snow camos were reissued with slategray or green gray. These have been posted on this thread previously. Most untouched painted white originals have been collected up long ago.

In light of the above, most white painted snow camos seen today are fake statistically. Go through this thread and look at all the crude snow camo fakes.

I posted the red cross helmet to show how white painted helmets wear in combat; the white paint takes a beating, being worn off of the crown completely. The subject snow camo has near 99% camo remaining. See the difference?

What do you want, a chemical analysis of the paint to prove conclusively that there are modern binders and compounds ? How can you really tell a painted snow camo that was painted winter of 1944, saw light use, was captured and brought back by a vet, compared to a postwar white painted helmet that has rattled around in a collector's chest for a few decades to give it some decent wear ??

If the postwar snow camo was done correctly (and more and more ARE being done correctly), it may be very very difficult to tell the difference. Rock-solid vet provenance could help, but most of these exotic freshies simply appear out of nowhere. I suppose it can be time consuming to generate bogus vet provenance.

So I personally go by statistics (most painted snow camos are fake) and by believable wear (white paint takes a beating in combat as evideced by period photos).

Thus, when I see white painted snow camos today with near 99% of camo remaining, I consider them to be fake 99% of the time.
 

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That explained things better. Thank You.

Now let's see if Player11 can make an intelligent argument why it is real. Other than M45 is wrong because it could have not been used much.

It's kind of like how all the SA Stamped 91/30 bayonets ended up in the United States and none were left in Finland. They also suddenly decided to use Rifle Size SA Stamps, that just so happen to be sold online, rather than the correct smaller size SA Stamp. Yet they are real because the "experts" said so. Even though it defies all logic. It couldn't possibly be that a fellow sat there stamping them all Winter. Then come Spring claimed they came from Finland. No one would do that 🙄

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Captain, I don't think Player11 is here to respond intelligently, although he has had many opportunities.

RE: the white snow camo above, Player11 says it belongs to his good friend, he has detailed pics on his PC and to him it is a very good camo. That's about the extent of his position on it.

I felt I gave some pretty good points about this helmet and painted snow camos in general. Very few exist in collections today probably because the war ended in late spring 1945 after the snow had melted. Former white wash helmets had their whitewash scrubbed off. Former snow camos were reissued with slategray or green gray.
.

In one thing im going to agree with you 100%, i m not here to help you or to be educated with you, like you arent with the rest of people.
If i want or not to reply you, will be my final deccission and as you are judging camo helmets, im here to judge to that person who judges it.
Said this lets go to the helmet.

" I felt I gave some pretty good points about this helmet and painted snow camos in general. Very few exist in collections today probably because the war ended in late spring 1945 after the snow had melted. Former white wash helmets had their whitewash scrubbed off. Former snow camos were reissued with slategray or green gray."

This sentence is an absolute stupid thing, for this same reason, as DD as per regulation had to me removed, all the DD we can find those, by you knowledge, MUST be fake, because they may be found with the eagle decal, or better nothing, so M40 and M42 with decal following your sentences are fakes today.

Winter camos used to be painted, many of them, with plaster. For that reason, is very easy to see helmets where the white paint has gone from the top, the plaster that survives tend to go yellow, that fact, is what makes to doubt in many cases in winter camos for the authenticy, most new winter camos paints, due to the work of fakers tent to have new rust, also from the same colour than old plaster.

For this reason, winter camos are one of the most hard camos to judge, the new rust and the oxidation of the plaste due to the chemical components have the same view from pics. They must to be judged on hand to see the kind os paint they have. Winter camos with plaster is easier to be judged because in high porcentage of probabilities should be good

I agree that many winter camos are faked, i dont have any of them, even when i have handled minimun 10 because its very difficult to agree when the yellow colour, which is common to snow camos is due to the plaster ( with in many cases this would give you a clue of the authenticy) is from a real helmet or a faked one.

A genuine winter camo MAY be painted with plaster, because it was the most recurrent paint in the russian area, that why most of them, the originals, showns the top of the helmet with the paint gone

Said this and showing the helmet we are speaking about, i like the way the paint is gone from the top, the eagle is a genuine and golden eagle of the Km.
This is not a winter camo, not a Normandy and not an exact pattern, just a yellow helmet painted with the red cross in the front.
If you see ( generally speaking) the crown, you can see how the feldgrau is under the kind of yellow paint, the red croos is almost gone in some areas and there arent tool marks around the helmet.
The rust, wich is not new, the new one is more orange than this, is not blowing from the broken areas, usually fakes, tend to blow the new rust from the holes where the tool marks are made, generally, by the injuries made to the iron.

I attach another pic of a helmet, that i have been asked from a friend, you can see the difference in the crown of both them, thie second medic one, appart from keeping all the paint on the crown, shows those yellow points known from the new rust.

Let me tell you, that is the first time i hear such a stupid sentence that " Very few exist in collections today probably because the war ended in late spring 1945 after the snow had melted." and beg you not to say again ( is not the first time i hear you that, because with your theory, all the M35, M40 and M42 SD that have reach to our days should be fakes, because the war ended in 1945.

If you really want to be taken for intelligent, please, dont fall in that mistake, because you will miss all your points
 

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