Third Party Press

Questionable Camos

Now I think you finally "jumped the shark" Full dusclousure,it's my lid.Ive sent them back before,this one has a lifetime guarantee from a honorable seller.This one I won't be sending back.I listed the reasons why I like it on GHW in hand.

This is by no means another "exotic freshy" I think it wasn't stored in a temp controlled environment,I don't believe it's "snow" and the wire exhibits bits of the camo.The liner may have been replaced( pins aren't bent though)

It's fine though,some may like it,some may not.I think you missed some things that favor it's real but to each his own.

The only thing that can convince me M45 is 100% correct all the time is he is going to have video proof or photos showing he made all these helmets he picked out and call our bluff !! Camo's aren't enough now we are going after period overpaints and rough re-issues.

I stated what I didn't care for on this helmet based off other examples I have seen and owned. He actually thought the same thing. Straight liner pins are no guarantee the liner wasn't swapped. But, I digress he's an adult and he bought the helmet and if he's happy with it that's all that really matters.
 
The only thing that can convince me M45 is 100% correct all the time is he is going to have video proof or photos showing he made all these helmets he picked out and call our bluff !! Camo's aren't enough now we are going after period overpaints and rough re-issues.

Don't forget questionable factory helmets, questionable SS helmets, and questionable M38 paras. Reissues and camos are close enough not to need a separate thread IMO. I sure we are all aware that basically every type of Third Reich helmet ever produced is being copied/replicated/faked in this day and age. I am amazed how so many collectors (especially camo collectors) can walk into a minefield as if they are on a Sunday stroll, as if nobody is out to dazzle them with modern art and then take their money. If they are happy with it, is it really all that matters ?

What happens when that authentic ray gun analyzer comes along, when a simple squeeze of the trigger tells you paint compounds to depth on a camo with a time period assessment, like how old those woodchips really are ?
 
GHW2 woodchip/wire camo. Posted by a member who just acquired it, no solid provenance whatsoever, not even an attempt at any provenance.

GHW2 is not buying it though. They are starting to question these exotic freshies.

Essentially no combat wear despite heavy rim/vent/rivet wear. Woodchips AND wire AND snow/mud ?, typically overdone re: exotic freshies. Liner appears to have been treated. A nice painted name.

That's got to be at least a 3-4K item. I would consider this to be a professionally done high-end fake. Anyone ?

I like this helmet.
 
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906226

Another Norwegian woodwork find, this one well received at WAF. I never cease to be amazed at what passes for authentic these days on experienced helmet forums. Many German helmets were reissued postwar in Norway; I believe this was one of them. I have seen that same color of overpaint on other Norwegian reworks, those with the tan paint to base metal and red treated liners. The net does not impress either. Isn't it strange how the former occupied countries are suddenly flush with camo helmets now that they know how much they are selling for (2K-4K average), places like Norway, France, Italy, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Russia.

Take a postwar Norwegian reissue, bang it up a bit, throw on a recent net and viola! you have an extremely rare and original camo.

If you are a camo collector, I would stay away from camos from occupied countries. You've got about a 95+% chance of getting a bad one. Your chances in the US are slightly better, only about 85%.



A fantastic Norwegian woodwork find! I have seen others from Norway with similar nets. Are you near the coast? I have seen others with that paint as well, in southern Norway (Rogaland/Agderfylkene if I remember correctly). Some say that paint color is Norwegian OD but I am sure it is German.

A few thoughts on the net. I understand they are highly debated and that it is hard to know when they were applied. I have asked an old colleague who is very much into fishing. He is certain that this is the kind of net they used to trap large groups of fish. I believe so too. Fishing was a huge industry here on the west coast of Norway those days. Combined with the helmets history I personally have no doubt it was applied during the war.

This helmet is terrible, really does look like it was made yesterday.
 
http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewphoto.php?shoph=67132&phqu=9

GERMAN WWII SINGLE DECAL CAMOUFLAGE COMBAT HELMET.
An absolutely superb and rare tropical helmet being a standard M.35 shell with apple green interior. The exterior has been completely painted in the tropical paint available, losses to the crown where it has been inverted on a number of times and other losses as can be seen from our web images but generally at least 75% of all the original paint finish remaining including the liner retaining rivet heads. The single army decal is absolutely clear with a couple of minor abrasions and rust that is flooding through from the steel of the basic shell, these can clearly be seen on our web images. To the interior the helmet is fitted with a 1940 pattern liner, which is conversant with the single decal. The shell is stamped ‘Q66’, the rubber ink stamp to the liner is clearly marked ‘58’, the liner itself having obvious wear use around the lower half of the leather body but with the remainder retaining virtually all its original light tan colour and its original drawstring. A superb helmet.

Code: 67132 Price: 1950.00 GBP ($2430 USD)

A well executed tropical as to wear, albeit with red/recent rust not the dark black rust seen on originals. A Q66 M35 but with a near mint HJ&K decal, one prolifically applied postwar.
Disparity of wear; exterior shows moderate to heavy use but liner and decal are near mint.
 

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http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewphoto.php?shoph=67132&phqu=9

GERMAN WWII SINGLE DECAL CAMOUFLAGE COMBAT HELMET.
An absolutely superb and rare tropical helmet being a standard M.35 shell with apple green interior. The exterior has been completely painted in the tropical paint available, losses to the crown where it has been inverted on a number of times and other losses as can be seen from our web images but generally at least 75% of all the original paint finish remaining including the liner retaining rivet heads. The single army decal is absolutely clear with a couple of minor abrasions and rust that is flooding through from the steel of the basic shell, these can clearly be seen on our web images. To the interior the helmet is fitted with a 1940 pattern liner, which is conversant with the single decal. The shell is stamped ‘Q66’, the rubber ink stamp to the liner is clearly marked ‘58’, the liner itself having obvious wear use around the lower half of the leather body but with the remainder retaining virtually all its original light tan colour and its original drawstring. A superb helmet.

Code: 67132 Price: 1950.00 GBP ($2430 USD)

A well executed tropical as to wear, albeit with red/recent rust not the dark black rust seen on originals. A Q66 M35 but with a near mint HJ&K decal, one prolifically applied postwar.
Disparity of wear; exterior shows moderate to heavy use but liner and decal are near mint.

I agree a very dangerous helmet.
 
I like this helmet.

In helmet collecting past there were far fewer fakes, those that were around were crude clumsy attempts at replicating the real thing. Since collectors were largely surrounded by originals back then, their standards of originality were naturally higher. This was before the explosion of interest in German helmets (mid '80s - '90s) so there was not the big drive to fake camos as there is today. It was also before the wall came down and before international Ebay, before the flood of fakes had arrived from the former occupied countries.

If you were to chart these two phenomena on a graph, on the left side (the past) you would see standards of originality very high while fake quality would be very low. As the graph moved through time towards the right side, you would see standards drop and fake quality improve. At some point in time the two lines crossed, and today we see standards of originality quite low with fake quality very high.

Standards of originality have dropped precariously because collectors are being taught on forums what "real camos" look like. Replicas have "taken on an authenticity all of their own" (to quote K. Hicks). This dubious authenticity has been propped up by COAs, bogus vet acquisition stories, ownership histories, fakes appearing in print as "textbook examples", forum vettings and authors who are also dealers authenticating the helmets they sell by virtue of their declarations alone.

Fake quality has improved immensely due to "artists" learning the authentic processes used to mix/apply camo material, the same processes used during the time period. Aging the artwork convincingly has also been perfected. The fakes showing up today are light years ahead of the fakes produced by an acquaintance of mine in the late '70s early '80s, mixing paint by hand or selecting approximate pre-mixed colors with fake decals and then toning it all down with brown antiquing solution.
 
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Now I think you finally "jumped the shark" Full dusclousure,it's my lid.Ive sent them back before,this one has a lifetime guarantee from a honorable seller.This one I won't be sending back.I listed the reasons why I like it on GHW in hand.

This is by no means another "exotic freshy" I think it wasn't stored in a temp controlled environment,I don't believe it's "snow" and the wire exhibits bits of the camo.The liner may have been replaced( pins aren't bent though)

It's fine though,some may like it,some may not.I think you missed some things that favor it's real but to each his own.

Its not the paint that bothers me on this helmet so much as it is the wire, as paint is subjective and we can reasonably disagree on it. What I mean is that the pictures make the wire look VERY corroded, like its about to go through in places. A notable example would be the piece running down from the rear rivet to the rim. This doesn't look like corrosion that it has acquired since being on the shell, as the shell would exhibit similar cancerous rust, which it doesn't. I'm not saying that the Germans would've used brand new wire in the field, but man, someone picked a nasty piece of metal to work with.
 
Its not the paint that bothers me on this helmet so much as it is the wire, as paint is subjective and we can reasonably disagree on it. What I mean is that the pictures make the wire look VERY corroded, like its about to go through in places. A notable example would be the piece running down from the rear rivet to the rim. This doesn't look like corrosion that it has acquired since being on the shell, as the shell would exhibit similar cancerous rust, which it doesn't. I'm not saying that the Germans would've used brand new wire in the field, but man, someone picked a nasty piece of metal to work with.

That's the point I was trying to make. With wire there really isn't a set rule as to what wire should look like. Bailing or com wire was used a lot as that's what was avail. Chicken or poultry fencing as well. WHy ?? cause that's what was avail in these rural farming areas.

If the shell matched this wire it would have been a rusted hulk if it was the same age when the helmet was in use. As most wire is plated so it will last for years outside.

I stand on my comments made on this one.
 
You guys are starting to see inconsistencies and question what you see, not simply accepting everything - definitely positive.

Wire on a helmet is in itself a red flag these days, that is, when you see a wire helmet (like when you see a Medic -Red Cross or painted snow camo) you should become immediately suspicious. Why ? Because wire camos compared to camos in general are few. And camos in general compared to all German combat helmets are few. Most of the original wire camos have long since been collected up. What we see today are nearly all replicas. Probably one of the easiest camos to replicate, find some old wire and wrap it around a helmet. How hard can that be ? I would rate wire camos like red cross and snow camos in the 95+% fake range.

I have seen wire camos on dealer's sites sell for premiums. An old beat no-decal helmet with shot liner ($300 value?) have a wire wrapped around it and sell for $2300, or $3300. Tell me that's not the definition of motivation.
 
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Its not the paint that bothers me on this helmet so much as it is the wire, as paint is subjective and we can reasonably disagree on it. What I mean is that the pictures make the wire look VERY corroded, like its about to go through in places. A notable example would be the piece running down from the rear rivet to the rim. This doesn't look like corrosion that it has acquired since being on the shell, as the shell would exhibit similar cancerous rust, which it doesn't. I'm not saying that the Germans would've used brand new wire in the field, but man, someone picked a nasty piece of metal to work with.

Easy explanation,the wire isn't painted, the shell is.Bare metal exposed corrodes faster.Lke I said the camo shows not the best storage IMO.That " snow" Camo isn't Camo, it's some kind of oxidation.
 
H041470 M40 COMBAT HELMET WITH CAMOUFLAGE WIRE. (Stahlhelm M40 mit Tarnung Draht)

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H041470.html

M40 ND PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: The stamped, sheet steel construction helmet retains 95% of its original feldgrau paint. Attached to the top of the helmet is its European style chicken wire applied for securing camouflage foliage, etc.. The wire is formed into fairly consistent, large, six sided opened panels with the correct amount of twists to two sides of each panel. The chicken wire is crimped onto a heavier gauge wire that is horizontally laid at the apex of the crown and visors with an additional four pieces of evenly spaced wire being crimped around the bottom edge of the helmet to secure it in place. Wire is all original to the helmet and untouched. All three liner retaining rivets are intact. Liner is mostly present but is now very dry and most of the finger ends are torn. Lot Nr. is T4634; Maker is Quist; size appears to be 66. Great camo wire helmet.

GRADE **** PRICE $2,459.00 (Or Best Offer)


Mauser, Nirvana; I know you guys are worried about that corroded wire. Here is one I found with much better conditioned wire. I do think you will feel much better about this one.



OK, if you don't like that one here's another; M42 SD Heer with primo-condition wire.

M42 SD HEER PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: The stamped, sheet steel construction helmet retains about 75% of its original field-grey paint. The left side of the helmet has a Wehrmacht eagle decal which is retained about 70%. Attached to the top of the helmet is it heavy gauge, foliage camouflage attachment wire. All three liner retaining rivets are intact. Complete age and usage darkened, quite dry and still, M31 leather liner. The interior reverse neck guard apron has a number stamp "3165" and the stamped manufacturer’s code and size "ckl 64" indicating manufacture by Eisen-und Hüttenwerke, AG Thale/Harz, size 64. Of Note: The placement of the manufacturer’s code and size on the reverse, interior, neck guard apron indicates manufacture after mid-1943.

GRADE **** PRICE $2,499.00
 

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http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H041470.html

M40 ND PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: The stamped, sheet steel construction helmet retains 95% of its original feldgrau paint. Attached to the top of the helmet is its European style chicken wire applied for securing camouflage foliage, etc.. The wire is formed into fairly consistent, large, six sided opened panels with the correct amount of twists to two sides of each panel. The chicken wire is crimped onto a heavier gauge wire that is horizontally laid at the apex of the crown and visors with an additional four pieces of evenly spaced wire being crimped around the bottom edge of the helmet to secure it in place. Wire is all original to the helmet and untouched. All three liner retaining rivets are intact. Liner is mostly present but is now very dry and most of the finger ends are torn. Lot Nr. is T4634; Maker is Quist; size appears to be 66. Great camo wire helmet.

GRADE **** PRICE $2,459.00 (Or Best Offer)


Mauser, Nirvana; I know you guys are worried about that corroded wire. Here is one I found with much better conditioned wire. I do think you will feel much better about this one.



OK, if you don't like that one here's another; M42 SD Heer with primo-condition wire.

M42 SD HEER PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: The stamped, sheet steel construction helmet retains about 75% of its original field-grey paint. The left side of the helmet has a Wehrmacht eagle decal which is retained about 70%. Attached to the top of the helmet is it heavy gauge, foliage camouflage attachment wire. All three liner retaining rivets are intact. Complete age and usage darkened, quite dry and still, M31 leather liner. The interior reverse neck guard apron has a number stamp "3165" and the stamped manufacturer’s code and size "ckl 64" indicating manufacture by Eisen-und Hüttenwerke, AG Thale/Harz, size 64. Of Note: The placement of the manufacturer’s code and size on the reverse, interior, neck guard apron indicates manufacture after mid-1943.

GRADE **** PRICE $2,499.00


More crap that's guaranteed for life... to be what ???? Crap :facepalm:
 
GHW2 SD HEER ET66 M35



To be the dissenting voice:

It is pretty, but it looks also like it was painted and then put into storage. There's a lot of wear on the edges and high points, some popped off bits of paint, but nothing that makes the outside of the lid look like it was used. That, and the really fresh looking colors make me pause.

F.



It IS pretty, Frank. It looks like a mild-mannered interior decorator painted it with a fine brush, fresh looking colors and nice swirling motions. Not what I consider to be a camo done by a tough, macho Wehrmacht soldier who has seen death and destruction. And it does look like it was put into storage, or a time machine. Yes you are correct, wear on high points but paint in amazingly good condition.
 

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GHW2 SD HEER ET66 M35



To be the dissenting voice:

It is pretty, but it looks also like it was painted and then put into storage. There's a lot of wear on the edges and high points, some popped off bits of paint, but nothing that makes the outside of the lid look like it was used. That, and the really fresh looking colors make me pause.

F.

Am I learning? ;)

You do spend too much time on GHW for pretending not being there. Come out — a lot of people might just welcome you back.

F.
 
OMG What is the world coming to?

Peter and Giorgio used to be good dealers.

WTF are they trying to pawn off now? Have pickings become so hard that they are selling absolute SHEET?

Must be terrible times to be a full time dealer to resort to this? :laugh:

I can't believe I'm taking the side of Brian Ice on this one here.

This is laughable.
 

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All the well known dealers from the past 20 years are selling straight out obvious fakes because the authentic stuff has become harder to come by.

They need to cover their nut so to speak. So selling questionable items have become part of their repartoir.
 
GHW2 SD HEER ET66 M35

To be the dissenting voice:

It is pretty, but it looks also like it was painted and then put into storage. There's a lot of wear on the edges and high points, some popped off bits of paint, but nothing that makes the outside of the lid look like it was used. That, and the really fresh looking colors make me pause.

F.


I admire your boldness Frank, but you are going against the grain here. GHW2 likes this modern art, it gives them the right feelings, pushes all of the right buttons, so to them it is authentic. (It was also posted by one of their dealer friends) You bringing up pesky details is just going to upset them. I don't want you to lose your membership over it. I have noticed that over time certain helmet forums begin to think alike; call it a subconscious understanding that the mods/admin are the authorities who set the tone and way in with authenticity issues thus applying mostly gentle but sometimes overt pressure to ensure members see issues the way they want them seen.

The effeminate "artsy" camo painted in soft colors with fine brushes with swirling strokes compared to camos painted by tough hard-core Wehrmacht soldiers. See the differences ?
 

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