Questionable Camos

[mrfarb]

It's human nature to trust Moderators of forums, many trust me and Ham (some probably implicitly). It can be a good thing - we try our best to be objective and forthright as I have to believe they do. The benefit we have is faking 98k's is harder to pass off as good than painting helmets.

 

[Hambone]

The K98k community long ago, with the inception of the internets, established an atmosphere of non-censorship and open debate which pretty much assures a self-policing hobby. I think as a result the hobby remains popular and trusted. Is there any doubt that if a new entrant to the hobby comes here for information he is going to get the straight up truth? I believe during that same formative period German helmet collecting was not so lucky and as a result we get the Shampain Ruin and XRFacts. I think the number of 20 and 30 somethings getting involved in K98k collecting is a testament to the solid foundation we all established and maintain. All my opinions of course.

 

[Warrior1354]

Can't agree more Hambone it was because of a friend that brought be here many years ago. Hard too believe how much I have learned here from many members on this forum. Not too mention made some good friends in the process. And I have seen many members here go out of their way too help another as well. Something that is lacking in modern times.

Only bad thing I have too say about the members here is the hangover they got me at the SOS show!

I tell new collectors in this hobby all the time research first, contribute too the collecting community, and make good friends as well. Too be honest had more fun seeing everyone at the SOS show then buying the stuff I wanted.

 

[DaveDavis]

The problem with German helmets, in general, is that unlike the service rifles, people are very emotional & subjective in their helmet assessments. The rifles are much much harder to fake, with the plethora of serial numbers, and the style of font used to number parts usually being a dead give away as to originality. An exception of course being period rebuilds, but even they follow certain rules. Objectivity and research are often key to proper identification of real Vs fake. Unfortunately, IMHO, many books purporting to show original examples of period helmets have, at best, questionable pieces displayed as original.

 

[capt14k]

I have to give much credit to you guys for the vetting of K98ks. No other firearm is as scrutinized. Unfortunately due to their value there are a plethora of fakes out there. I have yet to fully jump into K98k collecting because of the price and fakes. However I have been keeping a better eye on the trader because if I were to buy another one here would be the first place I would look. You guys have done an excellent job.

This thread in particular as I've said before has done me a great service as well. I will buy the rifles and just look at the helmets.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Frank F.]

GHW2 likes this modern art, it gives them the right feelings, pushes all of the right buttons, so to them it is authentic. (It was also posted by one of their dealer friends) You bringing up pesky details is just going to upset them. I don't want you to lose your membership over it. I have noticed that over time certain helmet forums begin to think alike; call it a subconscious understanding that the mods/admin are the authorities who set the tone and way in with authenticity issues thus applying mostly gentle but sometimes overt pressure to ensure members see issues the way they want them seen.

It is called "Groupthink" and got us Pearl Harbor and the 98.2% certainty of a Clinton win.

Per Wiki: "Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

Groupthink requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup".

We all want to belong...

I am not giving up on GHW. I like the place, have learned a lot there and want it to do well. One way to break groupthink is to have a "devils advocate" in every discussion and that's why I love this thread. Now, if the two just could come together...

F.

 

[M45]

Definition of patina
plural patinas \-nəz\ or patinae\-ˌnē, -ˌnī\

1
a : a usually green film formed naturally on copper and bronze by long exposure or artificially (as by acids) and often valued aesthetically for its colorb : a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use the beautiful patina of this antique table

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patina


patina:
a green or brown film on the surface of bronze or similar metals, produced by oxidation over a long period.

a gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=patina+definition&*


I've come to associate patina in regard to German helmets as the areas worn smooth by repeated handling and wear. This could involve helmet rims and crowns that have their paint worn off leaving a smooth, dark rusted surface. This could also apply to helmets with multi layers of paint, whereby a camo might have the crown paint worn down to the factory finish. It could also apply to factory textured paint worn smooth.

The closest areas I would call 'wear patina' on this wire camo might be the rims, but they should be smooth from handling. I see rough pitting on the rim indicative of recent oxidation.

Questionable camos do not usually have much if any true wear patina. I see some paint chipped off of vents and rivets on this example, but not worn off due to use.

Some collectors refer to an 'age patina' and point to the apparent age/oxidation shown in the closeup shots. I think this is where most collectors become misled. They see what appears to be aged paint, but this is something that can now be convincingly manufactured. If this camo had been truly worn in combat, the paint itself would show considerable dings, scratches, rub marks, chips, and wear patina down to factory finish or to smooth, dark metal.

I think the wire on this helmet is beside the point. If the paint is fake, then of course the wire application is fake. I would not spend any time scrutinizing the wire. Scrutinize the paint.

 

[M45]

http://griffinmilitaria.com/cgi-bin...&cat=41&page=1&search=&since=0&status=&title=

An M42 helmet with original thick, textured "sawdust" camouflage in what has commonly been referred to as a "Normandy" pattern. The original field gray paint was covered with a paint that was mixed with sawdust to create a porous textured surface. The exterior of the helmet has colors of lighter green, red, and yellow. In areas where the textured camouflage surface became chipped the original field gray paint can be observed. The interior rear of the skirt has a faintly stamped manufacturer and shell size mark above the lot number. The letter "F" can be made out in the factory code, which would indicate that the helmet was produced by Emaillierwerke A.G. There are some spots on the helmet where rust is present due too loss of not only the camouflage finish but the original field gray paint as well. As is typical, there is paint loss on the edges of the helmet, something that is particularly common on the M42 design. The interior liner is present and stamped as a size 56. The chin strap is missing. It appears that the original owner painted his initials inside of the helmet as well as another notation, perhaps a unit abbreviation, that cannot be readily deciphered. A very impressive example of a Normandy camouflage helmet with a sawdust textured finish.

Price:
$2700.00


Compared with the wire camo above, both helmets used a texturing material in the paint (sawdust/woodchips), but while this helmet went for a 3 color Normandy scheme, the wire above stuck with a single dark green finish. But the biggest difference between the two IMO is that the wire camo above was professionally aged to make it appear 70 years old. The 3-color Normandy was not significantly aged and this is apparent. So the M42 looks new and the M35 looks old, but I think both finishes are the same age - modern.

Also both helmet show essentially no combat wear beyond the few chips to the paint with hard breaks, nothing worn smooth.

 

[mcorioles]

Definition of patina
plural patinas \-nəz\ or patinae\-ˌnē, -ˌnī\

1
a : a usually green film formed naturally on copper and bronze by long exposure or artificially (as by acids) and often valued aesthetically for its colorb : a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use the beautiful patina of this antique table

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patina


patina:
a green or brown film on the surface of bronze or similar metals, produced by oxidation over a long period.

a gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=patina+definition&*


I've come to associate patina in regard to German helmets as the areas worn smooth by repeated handling and wear. This could involve helmet rims and crowns that have their paint worn off leaving a smooth, dark rusted surface. This could also apply to helmets with multi layers of paint, whereby a camo might have the crown paint worn down to the factory finish. It could also apply to factory textured paint worn smooth.

The closest areas I would call 'wear patina' on this wire camo might be the rims, but they should be smooth from handling. I see rough pitting on the rim indicative of recent oxidation.

Questionable camos do not usually have much if any true wear patina. I see some paint chipped off of vents and rivets on this example, but not worn off due to use.

Some collectors refer to an 'age patina' and point to the apparent age/oxidation shown in the closeup shots. I think this is where most collectors become misled. They see what appears to be aged paint, but this is something that can now be convincingly manufactured. If this camo had been truly worn in combat, the paint itself would show considerable dings, scratches, rub marks, chips, and wear patina down to factory finish or to smooth, dark metal.

I think the wire on this helmet is beside the point. If the paint is fake, then of course the wire application is fake. I would not spend any time scrutinizing the wire. Scrutinize the paint.

You seem to confuse your opinion with fact quite often.You have no idea and neither do I how long or how much combat this lid saw.

That is a fact.

The lid is somewhat worn all of the "sharp" edges from the chips or whatever was used are smooth.

I'm fine with critical assessment on what is provided( my pictures) but your last post is speculation being used to discredit this helmet.

I've held and owned a dozen or so real wires and I'm comfortable with this one and the camo.

I'm on the fence about the liner.

 

[M45]

You seem to confuse your opinion with fact quite often.You have no idea and neither do I how long or how much combat this lid saw.

That is a fact.

The lid is somewhat worn all of the "sharp" edges from the chips or whatever was used are smooth.

I'm fine with critical assessment on what is provided( my pictures) but your last post is speculation being used to discredit this helmet.

I've held and owned a dozen or so real wires and I'm comfortable with this one and the camo.

I'm on the fence about the liner.

When I see pristine condition camo/overpaint, I do get an idea of how much combat it saw. There is a big difference between well-aged finishes (as this wire camo) and well-worn finishes.

May I suggest you
A: return the helmet for a full refund
and
B: Hold back on buying any more camos

And I do not say that to criticize your camo authentication skills. I say that because the art of camo replication/fakery has reached such a high level of expertise and professionalism that even long time helmet collectors are being fooled. Some old time collectors saw this day coming and now it is here. Camo replicas are approaching near-perfect copies of the real thing. And it's not going to get any better.

 

[mcorioles]

When I see pristine condition camo/overpaint, I do get an idea of how much combat it saw. There is a big difference between well-aged finishes (as this wire camo) and well-worn finishes.

May I suggest you
A: return the helmet for a full refund
and
B: Hold back on buying any more camos

And I do not say that to criticize your camo authentication skills. I say that because the art of camo replication/fakery has reached such a high level of expertise and professionalism that even long time helmet collectors are being fooled. Some old time collectors saw this day coming and now it is here. Camo replicas are approaching near-perfect copies of the real thing. And it's not going to get any better.

I disagree,sorry. I have it in hand.For you to make a absolute decision on the helmet when no one else wholly dismissed it tells me a lot.

I also disagree about the level realism.90% or more of the fake lids posted here are totally obvious fakes, very few fool the community at large.

 

[M45]

Historically I have selected camos that I thought were obviously bad and stayed away from the many in the gray areas. But as my abilities improved over time, I have begun to understand the structure of the 'high-end fake', a type of replica in a class all by itself. Yes, many of the questionable camos I posted should have been obvious as to what they were. I guess that was the point. Obvious fakes selling for original prices.

But when that obvious Latvian kamo fake created the reactions that it did, then I knew the followers were ripe for the pickings.

I suppose this thread has garnished somewhat of a cultish following, but am I a cult leader for calling out questionable camos ?

 

[mcorioles]

Historically I have selected camos that I thought were obviously bad and stayed away from the many in the gray areas. But as my abilities improved over time, I have begun to understand the structure of the 'high-end fake', a type of replica in a class all by itself. Yes, many of the questionable camos I posted should have been obvious as to what they were. I guess that was the point. Obvious fakes selling for original prices.

But when that obvious Latvian kamo fake created the reactions that it did, then I knew the followers were ripe for the pickings.

I suppose this thread has garnished somewhat of a cultish following, but am I a cult leader for calling out questionable camos ?

Calling many lids questionable is not a skill.Someone can find reasons to call ANY camo questionable.



And I've never seen any of yours posted.Why is that?

Calling mine bad shows a lack of judgement because you haven't had it in hand.Paul Martin,Dave Shirlin and now myself have had it in hand and like it.

Yes no one gets it right all the time including me.

Just my opinion but your last post reinforces my opinion that you like the attention.

 

[mcorioles]

I've got a doozy coming up on GHW I know you will call fake. It's cool everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Niblet]

Definition of patina
plural patinas \-nəz\ or patinae\-ˌnē, -ˌnī\

1
a : a usually green film formed naturally on copper and bronze by long exposure or artificially (as by acids) and often valued aesthetically for its colorb : a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use the beautiful patina of this antique table

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patina


patina:
a green or brown film on the surface of bronze or similar metals, produced by oxidation over a long period.

a gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=patina+definition&*


I've come to associate patina in regard to German helmets as the areas worn smooth by repeated handling and wear. This could involve helmet rims and crowns that have their paint worn off leaving a smooth, dark rusted surface. This could also apply to helmets with multi layers of paint, whereby a camo might have the crown paint worn down to the factory finish. It could also apply to factory textured paint worn smooth.

The closest areas I would call 'wear patina' on this wire camo might be the rims, but they should be smooth from handling. I see rough pitting on the rim indicative of recent oxidation.

Questionable camos do not usually have much if any true wear patina. I see some paint chipped off of vents and rivets on this example, but not worn off due to use.

Some collectors refer to an 'age patina' and point to the apparent age/oxidation shown in the closeup shots. I think this is where most collectors become misled. They see what appears to be aged paint, but this is something that can now be convincingly manufactured. If this camo had been truly worn in combat, the paint itself would show considerable dings, scratches, rub marks, chips, and wear patina down to factory finish or to smooth, dark metal.

I think the wire on this helmet is beside the point. If the paint is fake, then of course the wire application is fake. I would not spend any time scrutinizing the wire. Scrutinize the paint.

Looks like Bill M's fence in the background of these photos,,,I think Brian is doing a fantastic job of correctly and very professionally
calling out the cancer that has infected the hobby,,,, now if he would please start a thread on factory decaled helmets,,,

 

[mauser99]

he already has. Questionable factory helmets it's called. His research has really excelled what we know today. This is of course more black and white.
The camo helmet issues have a lot of grey areas that include gut instincts and years of in hand knowledge.

 

[M45]

Looks like Bill M's fence in the background of these photos,,,I think Brian is doing a fantastic job of correctly and very professionally
calling out the cancer that has infected the hobby,,,, now if he would please start a thread on factory decaled helmets,,,

That does look like Bill's place. He would set his work out by the swimming pool and let the chlorine vapors do their work.

Thanks for the kudos, guys!

 

[mcorioles]

That does look like Bill's place. He would set his work out by the swimming pool and let the chlorine vapors do their work.

Thanks for the kudos, guys!

Wrong,my house and my names not Bill.More unsubstantiated opinions.

Would love to see some if your guys lids.

 

[Niblet]

Brian and fellow forum members,,could i get your opinion on this "bird in a cage"???
I see different colors of corrosion,,I see an old 150 dollar helmet with a nifty wire put over it and nicely "ghosted" in
"shadow"

 

[Niblet]

More pics.......