Questionable Camos

[M45]

I know the previous owner and he is a honest guy. His house got struck by lightning, burned, and he lost almost everything in the fire, including his pups.

I also know that this helmet is not a Rex creation because I asked Rex. You are off here.


I was just comparing this one with a REX camo. I realize it was not his work.



F.

I have to agree. I've known Andy for a number of years. Just talked with him on the phone today as a matter of fact.

The helmet was in a house fire. No blow torch there big guy.

Sorry to hear about the house fire and I hope Andy didn't pay too much for that one. It is still worth about $300 for parts, down from the $400 value as a re-enactor. The fire has revealed an odd light green base, probably a preliminary layer for the creation of the camo. Sounds odd for a period camo, but modern recreations are often comprised of various layers of paints in attempts to get it right. Much planning and time goes into these works of art, and it shows. The color(s) selection, the texture selection, the means of application (brush/spray/ etc), the scheme, and so on. Hopefully, camo collectors will realize under what conditions originals were typically created.

 

[M45]

French Connection

French Connection Camo. - WAF.

It looks like a former DD Heer with a medium gray reissue finish. Greed has no shame and often little abilities.

 

[mcorioles]

French Connection Camo. - WAF.

It looks like a former DD Heer with a medium gray reissue finish. Greed has no shame and often little abilities.

Obvious fake and noted at WAF.

 

[M45]

GHW2 - 808

Have you got any of those photos of glossy white helmets? because I haven't seen yet any wartime photos of Soldiers wearing lids with glossy snow white paint?

As far as I'm aware ,, The Germans used in the field a chalky white lime calk to whitewash their Panzer's and helmets to. It wasn't supposed to be permanent. it was washed or scrubbed off the equipment when the snow was gone. The whitewash was only supposed to be temporary thing.

This is an old Topic from 2014 that's been dragged up again. Looking at this M35 again today ..I see a salty rusted out (almost relic) helmet with rotted moldy leather liner ,But the outside of the helmet has an almost pristine condition coat of glossy white paint? that looks brilliant white after 70 years? and looking closer at the M35 the white on the inside rim of helmet looks like it's painted over the rust? I don't believe the white paint is wartime applied.

I disagree with you regarding no textbook being used! There was a textbook used called the army training manual ..German troops were trained in military Schools before they got shipped to the Front. They were instructed how to use different methods of Camouflage that included the use of whitewash on their helmets in Winter. Can't imagine them being allowed to use tins of gloss white paint that could not be easily removed afterwards. Except maybe if the helmet was thrown into a bath of acid?



SCOTT B. Of course the Germans painted helmets white with paint, glossy and otherwise. Jan has found several in Norway. I've also found helmets in Norway that were painted white and were painted over with dark paint. Another was glossy white and quite rusty, in relic condition. Here is a picture of a coastal battery crew in Bergen, Norway, with white painted helmets in 1941.


Some good discussion about white camo helmets - re: was white glossy paint used versus the flat removeable whitewash.

 

[mcorioles]

I think this helmet illustrates what was posted above about chalky whitewash.This one looks good IMO.


http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893825

 

[Anders]

I never understood why Norway was the, "Pot of gold at the end of the rainbow." Too many high quality items supposedly come from there.

If its too good to be true, you know the rest.

Not just helmets, but smocks and visor caps too.

Is it really the honey hole?

Ken, I would say it was....
When I started to collect in the -80's there was many nice things coming out from Norway.
And it was easy to find in antique shops etc. Even the museums had plenty of things they did sell or trade..
During the trips I made there I have seen stacks of German helmets, boxes of SS smocks and helmet covers, etc, etc.
But did never see any Jackson Pollock on LSD painted LW camo helmets...
Today its getting harder to find militaria in the honey hole Norway
I have stopped making adds there, but still from time to time getts mail from old pickers that wants to sell stuff.

 

[M45]

NEW! Item 877 M42 spray camo SD army helmet

http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm

This is an Hkp64 single decal army helmet which has fairly smooth texture to the factory paint indicating it was likely worn for quite a while before being over-painted in camouflage. If you pay attention to Camouflage helmets, you are going to notice that the majority of them have had a base coat painted over the factory paint before the other colors were added. Most usually that base coat is tan. This helmet did not use a base coat. That is; all three colors were applied in irregular panels. The colors themselves are the standard vehicle paints; reddish-brown, ordnance tan and grass green. ( I call this green color "mess kit green" as it is so often seen used by the makers of aluminum mess kits from 1941-43. Also, my MG42 Lafette mount is this exact color of green) The camouflage coating of this helmet remains 95% intact with the damage mostly dispersed in random areas around the exterior. The helmet had been a single decal army but the decal is only partially visible. The liner and strap show honest wear which is commensurate with the rest of the helmet. Having very good contrast between the colors; this one displays well at all angles. ON HOLD


RAL spray paint available in the EU.


RAL spray paint.

http://www.zib-militaria.de/epages/6...ationslacke"

EDIT: no shipping outside of the EU. Sorry U.S. helmet restorers


Bright vibrant colors, no dullness or flatness due to 70 years of age/oxidation. Micro spatter indicative of modern spray equipment.

Probably the most common type of questionable camo (the Normandy 3 color) with accurate RAL spray paint, can be produced all day long.

The heavily worn decal made this a good choice for restoration (low $$$ helmet). Moving on towards the end of this decade and beyond, expect to see LOADS of camos just like this one. Using accurate RAL spray paint, they are not that difficult to produce and distress, yet the returns are high - re: a $300 M42 with worn components being jazzed up to sell for 2-4K.


If camo collectors cannot spot this as an obvious modern restoration, then my advice to them is to get out of the hobby before losing more money.

Note difference in the second Normandy camo (last 5 photos).

 

[Peiper]

Found in Norway, so its original, no questions asked. Does anyone have good clear period pics of these things? Like, proof that they existed before 2008...?

Oh yes! I picked up mine personally in 1995. The father of an ex-girl friend gave it too me as a gift on the island of Rennesoy, Norway. Her grandfather had aquired the helmet in 1945. I can provide adress and name of family if you have the urge to validate my claim.

My helmet has the same bright colors as ScottB's underneath the olive drab. So yes, these are real and original camo helmets. Less than 10 has been discovered.

These will always be deemed questionable due to their unique pattern and colors, but it does not matter. I know they are real and mine stays on the shelf as it is not for sale.

Regards,
Rune

 

[capt14k]

Sorry to jump on thread but we missed you since the election in the political off topic area Peiper

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[M45]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893939&page=3

The helmet collecting community overall has not changed. It is the online collecting community which has changed. Superb helmets have been purchased over the last year and by people who used to post their finds. Why would they post them now with such fear of helmets by those who post the most and collect the least? The helmet forums are all like that now. Everything is now "questionable" online.

Anyhow, things change and I warned of this years ago.

Some great books came out presenting superb FJ helmets. Very few commented. A measurable indicator of what I speak of.
__________________
Willi


Reminds me of the old expression" God created man and Colt made men equal" .
The major downside of the forums is many of these self appointed judges basically call into question virtually anything that is posted. That's why I rarely post anything anymore and many, many others don't. The ignorant or those with an agenda have an equal voice that they did not have in pre net days.
nutmeg



They don't sound too happy that collectors question things. That sounds strange in this collecting era that is flooded with fake and postwar altered items. And those who do question are "ignorant" with an "agenda".

Also, helmet forums like WAF have vetted loads of obviously bad stuff over the years. Members have actually been banned over the criticizing of obviously bad camos, like the bad M38 camo "discovered" in a barn back in 2008. The old "Communist Trick" re-emerges: accuse others of doing what you're doing. Accuse those who disagree with you of having an "agenda" when in reality it is you who have the agenda.

 

[M45]

Ken, I would say it was....
When I started to collect in the -80's there was many nice things coming out from Norway.
And it was easy to find in antique shops etc. Even the museums had plenty of things they did sell or trade..
During the trips I made there I have seen stacks of German helmets, boxes of SS smocks and helmet covers, etc, etc.
But did never see any Jackson Pollock on LSD painted LW camo helmets...
Today its getting harder to find militaria in the honey hole Norway
I have stopped making adds there, but still from time to time getts mail from old pickers that wants to sell stuff.

Same basic story in the USA, in the past the stuff was much more available for cheaper prices and many more woodwork/garage sale/antique shop finds. The more 'exotic' camos were even available.

But today, most of the really good stuff (reriginal exotic camos) has been collected-up. There was only so much of that stuff brought back. Did original exotic camos exist ? They certainly did. There are period photos to verify it. But you could say that exotic camos were in a class by themselves apart from your typical drab unremarkable camo.

Occasionally there is the breakup of a large collection when someone passes on, but that doesn't happen often. Too often you see how much fake stuff they had. Some smaller collectors cash out or pass on but that usually involves much fewer items.

All of this to say that demand for rare original TR camo helmets is increasing but original stocks are diminishing. How could this voracious demand be satisfied ?

There are plenty of reworks available (Norwegian, Czech) and semi relics in addition to heavily worn helmets that are being 'restored' as exotic camos and 'found straight out of the woodwork', some with vet association, ownership history and COA's that are being passed off as authentic.

 

[M45]

Tunis Camo

Tunis Camo

Bang-on colors does not necessarily equal bang-on originality. Camo collectors need to understand that, because correct shades can be mixed by hand or now purchased in spray-can form.

With all of the exotic freshies now available, some of us are starting to lose interest in German camo helmets.

Don't be snake fascinated by color as color can (now) be easily duplicated. The richness of the paint, the lack of dull flatness, the contrived wear, the lack of believable combat wear and other red flags such as the split rivets lacking matching camo (liner was out during camo job) should 'trump' color.


EDIT:

Hello,

Well, if the camo of this helmet is not period original, I think it is better to stop the collection of these ones.

Concerning he split pins heads, I would say the same as in my previous post concerning an other M.42 camo helmet : Why would be a faker so stupid and not cover the pins heads with camo paint ? :clue:

Regards,

Charles


I agree with the first line much more than the second. The camo must be original because a faker would not be so stupid not to cover the pins with camo. Once again the reasoning seems to be, it looks so fake that it must be real. I suggest that the camo was painted on a shell or on a helmet with a damaged liner that was later upgraded. The camoed pins (if there were ever any) might have had terribly bent legs and so were replaced. It may have been counter productive to attempt to recreate the camo scheme for the pins only. Therefore the camo sits as it is.

 

[M45]

M35 normandy camo ghw2

Texture added to the paint for a Normandy 3 color spray camo ? If sprayed at the unit level using the same equipment used to spray vehicles, why would there be texture added ?

A fairly well distributed minor wear, some areas pristine while others rubbed to bare metal. Some area appear to show chemical aging.

 

[ZF41 K98k]

M35 normandy camo ghw2

Texture added to the paint for a Normandy 3 color spray camo ? If sprayed at the unit level using the same equipment used to spray vehicles, why would there be texture added ?

A fairly well distributed minor wear, some areas pristine while others rubbed to bare metal. Some area appear to show chemical aging.

Why wouldn't texture be added?? It was added to many sprayed-on camos, just look at the FJR6 helmets.

IMO yet another nice original has made it onto this thread!

 

[mauser99]

Why wouldn't texture be added?? It was added to many sprayed-on camos, just look at the FJR6 helmets.

IMO yet another nice original has made it onto this thread!

Looks like saw dust to me ? Also a lot of camo's are over rough paint re-issues that can vary in grit quite a bit. Or overpaints that the brush strokes course.

We don't all have to agree with M45 on all his postings its the discussion that's important IMHO.
Like most of this stuff one must say its all fake till we prove its real.. Instead of its real till its proven fake.

Some items have a grey area and camo's seem to be one of those items. The one's Ive personally bought and kept I have no issues believing they are real. But, one or two others may not like. I have to live with that.

 

[M45]

Why wouldn't texture be added?? It was added to many sprayed-on camos, just look at the FJR6 helmets.

IMO yet another nice original has made it onto this thread!

I realize that textured camos exist (individual soldier produced), but the spray RAL indicates IMO unit level en mass, just set the helmets in a row and go over them with sprayguns - the same paint/spray equipment used to paint vehicles. They were certainly not going to gum up their sprayguns with sand/sawdust, and the camo paint itself would be seen as sufficient without the need for texture. Also, most helmets by then had a factory or reissue rough texture finish that would still be effective underneath a thin spray camo. Once again, overdone IMO. Modern forgers/restores go overboard with these things when in reality much less effort was expended, I think.

Looks like saw dust to me ? Also a lot of camo's are over rough paint re-issues that can vary in grit quite a bit. Or overpaints that the brush strokes course.

We don't all have to agree with M45 on all his postings its the discussion that's important IMHO.
Like most of this stuff one must say its all fake till we prove its real.. Instead of its real till its proven fake.

Some items have a grey area and camo's seem to be one of those items. The one's Ive personally bought and kept I have no issues believing they are real. But, one or two others may not like. I have to live with that.

I realize that this is NOT a REX-39 restoration, but his work shows what is possible with various aspects of repro camo work, such as the wear type/patterns seen on this lid. The rim would seem to have had some chemical aging.

 

[mauser99]

The point could be argued till the cows come home.. I don't see them coming home anytime soon.

I agree with you on 90-95% of all the lids posted here. This one I don't.

After looking at the larger photos on GHW I would own this one in a heart beat...

 

[Hambone]

Looks like saw dust to me ? Also a lot of camo's are over rough paint re-issues that can vary in grit quite a bit. Or overpaints that the brush strokes course.

We don't all have to agree with M45 on all his postings its the discussion that's important IMHO.
Like most of this stuff one must say its all fake till we prove its real.. Instead of its real till its proven fake.

Some items have a grey area and camo's seem to be one of those items. The one's Ive personally bought and kept I have no issues believing they are real. But, one or two others may not like. I have to live with that.

This.

There are "textured" camos just as there are "textured" overpaints, etc. It didn't take much to spray on a coat of say, dunkelgelb, and then throw handfuls of sawdust all over the helmets on the ground, then hit them again with a spray gun. At the same time I agree, most lid humpers do tend to go a bit overboard. I guess it was in response to the WAF "exotic freshie" trend

 

[M45]

Once again, the wear on this one is unconvincing in addition to the other issues - pristine conditioned material next to heavy rub marks down to bare metal (disparity of wear), small bits of paint popped off, areas with what looks like chemical thinning (especially near the rim).

It may be that helmet collectors in general and camo collectors in particular do not want to admit that repros could be this good. If they admit that, then they would also have to admit that a large percentage of camos vetted on helmet forums in the past years were also bad, in addition to numbers of camos in their own collections being likely bad.

 

[mauser99]

Once again, the wear on this one is unconvincing in addition to the other issues - pristine conditioned material next to heavy rub marks down to bare metal, small bits of paint popped off, areas with what looks like chemical thinning (especially near the rim).

It may be that helmet collectors in general and camo collectors in particular do not want to admit that repros could be this good. If they admit that, then they would also have to admit that a large percentage of camos vetted on helmet forums in the past years were also bad, in addition to numbers of camos in their own collections being likely bad.

It's at all possible you are correct and when the whole house of cards comes crashing down I will only be holding 3 camos That Id bet your life on they are legit.

I do like the occasional textured camo as well as some applied over a smooth surface.