Questionable Camos

[M45]

Some relevant WAF camo discussion: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=889276 (my emphasis)

Paris Gun: Frankly, the painted liner doesn't trouble me too much &/or isn't my centralized area of focus with respect to ascertaining the helmet's authenticity; certainly it affects the value, but there may have been a valid reason to do so (blood-soaked from a prior owner, to prevent one's scalp from itching, and/or perhaps pursuant to an order issued to void revealing info: these are just a sample of hypothetical scenarios I came up with on the fly). Of course a Post-War application seems the most logical, but if vet done, why was such care devoted to such?

What troubles me though is the heavily pitted area to the rim as shown in a detailed photo; the same photo seems to also show another area of the rim with "filler" of some sort (at least that's what my poor eyesight caught). Maybe it was hung from a rusty nail, which could explain the VERY LOCALIZED severe pitting at that particular point. HOWEVER...

If a helmet rim can rust and become so pitted to actually loose some of the rim itself, then why does the exterior finish AND camo not reflect similar aging throughout?

I would LOVE to own this helmet, BUT as a "filler" in lieu of a collectible investment piece (at least on account of the current photos, which provide little confidence for me personally).

I anxiously await further comments, and to the current owner, IF the helmet continues to get 'killed', then LMK if you would consider a reconfigured sale price based upon the discussion results offered hereinafter!

Notwithstanding the aforesaid, I hope for your sake it is declared an unaltered/ unrestored original!



Walter B.: My explanation here is made with all due respect, and it is only given because I was asked. I don't take any satisfaction in shooting down someone's helmet or giving good people bad news.

Having said the above, in my personal opinion, the wear exhibited by this helmet is artificial and contrived. The camo in this helmet is one dimensional and not consistent with the effect of authentic wear or naturally occurring damage. By "one dimensional", I mean that if you look at virtually all the wear on this helmet, it is all chips of the same degree of force. Compare it to a real worn camo and you will notice in the original wear that the wear and chips are the result of various differing amounts of force/contact. Some of the authentic wear/damage only affects the top layer of camo, some affects up to the second layer of camo, some other wear/damage affects up to the original finish of the helmet and yet some other wear/damage goes all the way to the base metal. It makes sense, really, because not all natural wear or damage is ever the result of the same degree of force. Looking at the helmet posted, virtually all of the wear/damage is the same (one-dimensional). Look at the pictures of this camo with the above in mind. The crown of the helmet is particularly telling with respect to this deficiency.

In addition, there is no real graduation in the wear. By that I mean that naturally occurring wear has the effect of gradual "erosion". There is no gradual erosion with this helmet, but rather blunt gouges or chips in the paint. Again, not consistent with naturally occurring wear, in my honest opinion.

I could go on dissecting this helmet (not having addressed other camo features and the painted liner), but I believe that the above may properly explain the more salient issues with respect to this camo. Again, I do not revel in giving people bad news, in particular when involving a high-priced item such as this one.

 

[mauser99]

All this discussion of wear is fascinating but, reality and facts dictate what was done after the helmet wasn't being worn in combat.
Then all the post war tampering some of these lids endured.
The environment it was stored in for 70+ years has a lot to do with what the paint and leather will look like. I have seen nice camos and factory lids with larger chunks of paint missing from contact. How is this explained ??? And non conforming wear and scratches. Think about it first..

Also I'm not stating anything to stick up for any helmet being posted here. Just my observations and beliefs.

 

[ebeeby]

All this discussion of wear is fascinating but, reality and facts dictate what was done after the helmet wasn't being worn in combat.
Then all the post war tampering some of these lids endured.
The environment it was stored in for 70+ years has a lot to do with what the paint and leather will look like. I have seen nice camos and factory lids with larger chunks of paint missing from contact. How is this explained ??? And non conforming wear and scratches. Think about it first..

Also I'm not stating anything to stick up for any helmet being posted here. Just my observations and beliefs.

Interesting how many have no liner. What would explain that?

 

[mauser99]

Interesting how many have no liner. What would explain that?

hard to say ? But, I have seen one photo not sure If I can find where there is a dead German. He is face down and has the helmet liner still on his head with the chin strap around the chin. The shell is gone ?? Blown off and the liner band still on his head.

This is just one explanation of which there could be many. These are after action photos so, Clearing of a battle field is possible ? Or depot ect.

 

[M45]

All this discussion of wear is fascinating but, reality and facts dictate what was done after the helmet wasn't being worn in combat.
Then all the post war tampering some of these lids endured.
The environment it was stored in for 70+ years has a lot to do with what the paint and leather will look like. I have seen nice camos and factory lids with larger chunks of paint missing from contact. How is this explained ??? And non conforming wear and scratches. Think about it first..

Also I'm not stating anything to stick up for any helmet being posted here. Just my observations and beliefs.

Thanks for those pics, Mauser. If only those GIs knew how much those Afrika helmets would be worth one day, I doubt they would have been throwing them around like that.

I noticed in the second to the last shot how the majority of those Afrika pots are M35s and M40s. I see one SD Heer M42 rough edge.

 

[M45]

Winter - string camo

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892361

Posted on WAF from Europe. Very well done if restored.

The interesting thing about WWII German helmet collecting is that the vast majority of the 25 million production (M35/M40/M42/M38) ended up on the Eastern front, estimated to be about 21 million (after subtracting the Chinese order). (Estimated 85% of Wehrmacht and their Allies engaged in the East).

The Western front is estimated to have received the remainder 15% or about 3.7 million.

US GI's are estimated to have brought home over 1 million as war booty (estimated to be nearly 30% of all western front helmets). Added to that those brought home by US Allies (# unknown, but nowhere close to 1 million).


The vast majority of the Eastern Front helmets were melted down for scrap by the Russians. Eastern Europeans (Czechs, Bulgarians) reissued large numbers.

Of those German helmets remaining in Western Europe after the Allied exit, many were reworked for the postwar police and armed forces of nations such as Norway, West Germany, Spain, Finland, etc.


Fast forward to today, the bulk of original, untouched WWII German helmets resides in the USA. Those surviving in Europe/Russia are mostly reworks or battlefield dig-ups/relics.

So it should not be that surprising that East/West Europe and Russia have become a hotbed of restored/faked WWII German helmets.

All this to say that when camos emerge from there, I am extra skeptical.

 

[Steve87]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892361

Posted on WAF from Europe. Very well done if restored

It appears it was done by "Gottlieb"

-Steve

 

[M45]

GHW2 Concrete camo II

Happy Holidays !

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/39161-unbelivable-luftwaffe-dd-m35-concrete-camo-helmet-ii/

 

[M45]

It appears it was done by "Gottlieb"

-Steve

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/inspect.asp?Item=6508&Filter=German+Militaria

Kind of a strange similarity, these two ?

 

[M45]

3 color normandy M40

http://www.italianwarfront.com/?page_id=9

3 color Normandy M40. Wear looks decent, but the colors are off. Red-brown appears as orange.
Also, some odd material covering the name.

 

[M45]

Interesting how many have no liner. What would explain that?

hard to say ? But, I have seen one photo not sure If I can find where there is a dead German. He is face down and has the helmet liner still on his head with the chin strap around the chin. The shell is gone ?? Blown off and the liner band still on his head.

This is just one explanation of which there could be many. These are after action photos so, Clearing of a battle field is possible ? Or depot ect.

The early brass rivets on M35s had problems with shearing, and this was just from normal use. Think of an explosion being caught like a sail by the helmet shell and it makes sense that those thin split rivet legs would not hold up to the force. It could rip a helmet shell right off of the liner. The chinstrap may have broken the neck of that dead German. This may be why we see so many photos of helmet chinstraps folded over the visor.

In Audie Murphy's movie To Hell and Back, there is mention made of GIs not buckling their helmet chinstraps for the same reason.

 

[M45]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892361


The interesting thing about WWII German helmet collecting is that the vast majority of the 25 million production (M35/M40/M42/M38) ended up on the Eastern front, estimated to be about 21 million (after subtracting the Chinese order). (Estimated 85% of Wehrmacht and their Allies engaged in the East).

The Western front is estimated to have received the remainder 15% or about 3.7 million.

US GI's are estimated to have brought home over 1 million as war booty (estimated to be nearly 30% of all western front helmets). Added to that those brought home by US Allies (# unknown, but nowhere close to 1 million).


The vast majority of the Eastern Front helmets were melted down for scrap by the Russians. Eastern Europeans (Czechs, Bulgarians) reissued large numbers.

Of those German helmets remaining in Western Europe after the Allied exit, many were reworked for the postwar police and armed forces of nations such as Norway, West Germany, Spain, Finland, etc.


Fast forward to today, the bulk of original, untouched WWII German helmets resides in the USA. Those surviving in Europe/Russia are mostly reworks or battlefield dig-ups/relics.

So it should not be that surprising that East/West Europe and Russia have become a hotbed of restored/faked WWII German helmets.

All this to say that when camos emerge from there, I am extra skeptical.

Ebay tells an interesting story about this. I've seen large numbers of black Czech fire service shells and an occasional Bulgarian rework. Restorations and relics from the Balkans, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and the Russian Federation. Very few untouched original helmets from the former Eastern Front.

Western Europe is a bit better for original helmets but still with its share of postwar reissues restorations and relics.

Kind of a sad state for helmet collectors considering some 23 million original German helmets no longer exist.

Postwar produced shells/liners help to satisfy the great hunger for WWII German helmets.

 

[M45]

concrete camos ghw2

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/39161-unbelivable-luftwaffe-dd-m35-concrete-camo-helmet-ii/page-4

Concrete camos are the rage at GHW2.

Only 1 of these even fits a WWII German military theme IMO (can you guess which one ? Hint: NOT the ones with the bright lime green).

 

[nirvana]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/39161-unbelivable-luftwaffe-dd-m35-concrete-camo-helmet-ii/page-4

Concrete camos are the rage at GHW2.

Found in Norway, so its original, no questions asked. Does anyone have good clear period pics of these things? Like, proof that they existed before 2008...?

 

[M45]

M40 tropical

http://www.military-antiques-stockh...cts_id=3757&osCsid=q47kmkeaf0f1bebvkkbbu1qh31

Here we have a tropical painted Heer M40 Single decal helmet that has seen much of its tropical paint worn off from service, revealing its factory paint, approx 50 + % tropical paint remains decal remains to approx 70 + %. One would suspect it is from the Sicily/Italy theatre given it is an m40 (ET 62) Steel lot number is 636. It has a suitably sweat stained liner which is a good sign in a helmet worn in hot climates. It retains its draw string as well. It is named on the skirt to O.Gefr. Jories (sp?) and regimentally unit marked 11./16, a unit who was in Italy. The chinstrap is full length with a faint maker mark. It is an honest tropical helmet.

Infanterie-Regiment 16 was created in 1921 as part of the 100.000-Weimar Army. In 1938 it was trained as an airborne-unit (part of 22 Infanterie Division (Luftlande)). The regiment took part in the 1940 western campaign and was heavily engaged in the fight for Rotterdam. In action on the eastern front from day one, it made a name for itself during the taking of the Sevastopol fortress. After this the regiment was sent to Greece as occupation force and from October 1942 it was located on Crete. While on Crete it was reorganized as a Grenadier Regiment. After the Italian surrender, the Regiment took part in the retaking of the Aegean islands. In September 1944 it was evacuated to the mainland.

1,695.00€


I've been heard complaining about too much camo on these exotic freshies - near 100% in many cases. Only a few repetitive dings, hack marks or rub marks amidst pristine conditioned paint.
To the other extreme, I would consider this one a new genre of exotic freshie, a well-beat helmet that has had recent camo applied but then distressed to such an extent that considerably little camo remains. Now the well-beat camo remnants matches the original helmet condition wise.

Those bold white painted names with unit markings are a nice touch.

 

[M45]

M-42 German Medic helmet. Name inside. Size 60.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-42-German...752357?hash=item5440e12f25:g:fW8AAOSwa~BYUA7X

M-42 German Medic helmet. With white camouflage paint and big red cross on top for medic crew. Size 60. Helmet named to K.Biermann. Complete with liner size 53. Size stamp on the leather. Stamp on the leather B55VII43. Orig. Good condition.

US $510.00

Medic from Latvia. Appears to be chemical aging and shaded photos but is more believable from a distance than many from elsewhere IMO.

 

[M45]

ww2 German M-42 3 color camouflage helmet. Size 62. With initials. Complete.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ww2-German-...38d5283&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=122278356193

ww2 German M-42 helmet with three color camouflage paint on top (black-red-white). Size 62. Present 75% of camouflge paint, under it seen green paint. Manufacture stamps on the shell is ckl62 and 3465. Helmet have initials S.W.P. Good liner inside, size 55 with size stamp on the leather. Leather is soft, show wear and age. On the other side of leather seen RBNr stamp. In the dome seen oval stamp. Please see photos for more details. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Current bid:
US $263.00

I posted this because I know how much we love geometric camos! Red/white/black, the colors of the Nazi flag - how appropriate.
Judging by what I've seen on Ebay, Latvia is the source of more questionable helmets than any other one place. Probably original shells and possibly liner bands, but that's about it. Often the base coat on these will be a dark green, many with multiple interior rust spots. Fairly well done liners as well.

Appears to be chemical aging to the paint. Fake liner and dome stamps.

Each region seems to have their own style of restoration; French camos, Latvian connection specials, Norwegian camos, etc...

 

[M45]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/53838-lets-have-some-fun-dd-ss-camo-name-battle-damage-m35/

I can not find the maker/size marking and have looked everywhere on the left side near the chin strap lug. I used 10 power magnification and still could not find one. The greasy mark near where it should be is mineral oil. It must be under the paint. I can only see two numerals of the lot number and I can not make them out. Sorry.

Can you tell me how you spotted the bad decal. What did you look for? Thank you.


I think you are making a big mistake by coming into the helmet collecting hobby and jumping in at the deep end by collecting Ss helmets without doing your "hands on"homework. I knew another guy who did this and spent a shed load of money on so called fantastic Ss helmets, only to find out after 8 or 9 years that a big portion of his collection was either fake or put together in one way or another. He ended up selling all of his fake and original helmets and leaving the hobby with his tail between his legs.
You need to handle this stuff. There are helmets out there that have period decals put onto period helmets,but post war applied.
There are some very good fake decals also. Someone telling you the difference between a fake and real Ss decal is not going to help you out when your at a military show and have a helmet in your hand that is a good fake. You also have to look out for real Ss helmets that have good fake camo paint on them, or replaced leathers. The forums are good for learning the technical stuff, but you need to work your way up the ladder imo. You need to have enough hands on experience and confidence to buy camo Ss helmets. If you have to ask someone else if something is real or not, then it's my opinion that you should not buy it.
As for real or fake liners, it's not as simple as saying " the tongues are stretched,or the edges of the tongues are black etc. get some pictures of real period liners and do a side by side comparison. Lots of liners with black tongues and stretched tongues are real. Like I said, the forums are good for info, but they ain't the be all and end all of helmet collecting. You don't want to end up being a forum expert on camo Ss and chicken wire camo helmets, but have never handled them in the real world.



Some good advice about jumping into the hobby deep into camo/SS rare helmet collecting. This appears to be a restored relic (rust pitting, cracked top) with fake camo (red-brown appears as red) and fake pocher SS decals (as per GHW2). Interior paint does not look period, nor does the nice painted name (a nice touch).

I knew another guy who did this and spent a shed load of money on so called fantastic Ss helmets, only to find out after 8 or 9 years that a big portion of his collection was either fake or put together in one way or another. He ended up selling all of his fake and original helmets and leaving the hobby with his tail between his legs.


I knew a guy like this as well. Back in the day, it was elementary school level when collectors only really needed to know what a WWII German helmet looked like to begin buying this stuff. That was the way it was with me. I went to shows and started buying factory helmets. I didn't worry about repro paint/decals/components. Today it is more like college level when collectors need to do a fair amount of varied research and network on forums before they even begin to think about buying.

Consider the fields modern collectors need to be proficient in just to ensure they do not get ripped off:

Original helmet shells with maker codes vs. modern repros is a field.
Authentic liners/straps/components vs. modern repros is a field.
Lot numbers with maker/model decal associations is a field.
Original factory decals and original reissue decals vs. modern repros is a field.

And several 'forensic' style fields:

Factory paint vs. repros.
Reissue paint vs. repros.
Camo paint /RAL period colors used vs. modern
Authentic wear patters vs modern contrived wear.
Authentic old rust vs. recent rust.
Authentic age/oxidation vs. contrived.

Add to this
Authentic wire/string/camo covers vs. repros (all heavily faked to the extreme)

I'm sure there's more that can be added, but realize that this is just in reference to WWII German helmets. Consider every other type of German weapon, uniform, equipment, badge, flag, etc... and then expand this to every other WWII army and then to other wars and you begin to get a sense of the massive amount of knowledge that is required to successfully navigate the field of militaria collecting.

 

[deadeye18]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892361

Posted on WAF from Europe. Very well done if restored.

The interesting thing about WWII German helmet collecting is that the vast majority of the 25 million production (M35/M40/M42/M38) ended up on the Eastern front, estimated to be about 21 million (after subtracting the Chinese order). (Estimated 85% of Wehrmacht and their Allies engaged in the East).

The Western front is estimated to have received the remainder 15% or about 3.7 million.

US GI's are estimated to have brought home over 1 million as war booty (estimated to be nearly 30% of all western front helmets). Added to that those brought home by US Allies (# unknown, but nowhere close to 1 million).


The vast majority of the Eastern Front helmets were melted down for scrap by the Russians. Eastern Europeans (Czechs, Bulgarians) reissued large numbers.

Of those German helmets remaining in Western Europe after the Allied exit, many were reworked for the postwar police and armed forces of nations such as Norway, West Germany, Spain, Finland, etc.


Fast forward to today, the bulk of original, untouched WWII German helmets resides in the USA. Those surviving in Europe/Russia are mostly reworks or battlefield dig-ups/relics.

So it should not be that surprising that East/West Europe and Russia have become a hotbed of restored/faked WWII German helmets.

All this to say that when camos emerge from there, I am extra skeptical.

This style of restoration / refurbished helmet looks like a one off bespoke helmet done over here by www.warhats.com .The guys there are honest and sell these as restored and don't try to pass them off as original but I wonder how many will end up with con men dealers being sold for thousands of pounds.They do U.S. and British helmets aswell.I'm glad I don't buy camos now as the fakes are scarily good.

 

[M45]

This style of restoration / refurbished helmet looks like a one off bespoke helmet done over here by www.warhats.com .The guys there are honest and sell these as restored and don't try to pass them off as original but I wonder how many will end up with con men dealers being sold for thousands of pounds.They do U.S. and British helmets aswell.I'm glad I don't buy camos now as the fakes are scarily good.

http://www.warhats.com/
Genuine, Refurbished, Replica world War Two & other periods Helmets, Hats and Accessories. Our mission is to supply as accurate as possible, period head-wear and accessories. We only deal with head-wear: helmets, hats, caps etc. This helps us to provide you with accurate period items. Every item is described in detail, if the helmet is genuine period and the parts replaced, it will say this on the advert. You know exactly what your are getting when you buy from us.

We supply Film & performing arts companies. Some of our contributions can be seen in:

'Red Tails' - Film by George Lucas.
'Fury' Film by David Ayer starring Brad Pitt
'Foyles War' - UK & International TV Series.
'The Night Porter' - Stage Drama.
Many short films & Photography events

...but I wonder how many will end up with con men dealers being sold for thousands of pounds.


Happy New Year! I can only hope 2017 will be better for collectors (re: helmet fakes) but knowing human nature and the growing tide of forgery swirling all around us, I am cautious. Here's why.

This exotic freshie painted tiger stripe snow camo won 2nd place in GHW2's Helmet of the Year Contest. And no, I'm not happy about that. Helmet forums should be a bit more discerning about camos, IMO.

If I was blind and you told me you were going to purchase a run of the mill WWII German camouflaged helmet, I would put the odds at roughly 85% chance of it being fake.
If you told me the camo was a painted white snow camo, I would put the odds at roughly 95-99% chance of it being fake.
If you told me the white painted snow camo was a wild tiger-stripe pattern, I would put the odds at roughly 99.9999% chance of it being fake. (I don't say 100% because there is always a very slim chance of originality)

But a number like 99.9999% can be considered 100% for practical purposes. And this is the type of helmet that won 2nd place at the GHW2 HOY contest.

So you buy the helmet and show up at my house one day with this helmet in hand, and the utter shock of it all restores my sight, so I look the helmet over. Not surprisingly, I see more red flags:

1. red rust - recent oxidation
2. heavy corrosion to bare steel (evidence of a recent 'cooking' session)
3. damaged areas of factory finish possibly painted around (attempts to preserve original wear)
4. no sign of decal - low $$ helmet


IMO most authentic white painted snow camos in western collections today were captured during the winter fighting of 1944/1945; the invasion of Germany. White paint was no doubt hurriedly slopped on under the circumstances. But note how this example shows attention to fine detail; nice wavy stripes, nice consistent spacing, nice consistent width, etc... It shows careful forethought, planning and execution and the time to do it all, not consistent at all with hurried preparations for a major battle to forestall invasion of the homeland.

This one truly is a "dream helmet".