Questionable Camos

[M45]

I like it enough not to dismiss it based upon the pics. I like it actually. I would want an in hand. I have 100% original helmets with reddish oxidation. "Red" oxidation can be made to look like "old rust" in seconds.

Basically anything that is forged with the intent to deceive can theoretically be so well done that first impressions are misleading. Fine art (re: famous oil paintings) are a good example. Some of it is so well done that even the art experts have been fooled. And these are far more intricate than camo helmets.

Considering snow camos in this case, we know that most were done with white-wash, a thinned out water base paint that was scrubbed off after the snows melted. The white-wash on examples surviving the war probably flaked off over the decades since the white-wash lacked body. So collectors are left with helmets with only remnants of white wash (the majority).

Very few white painted snow camos exist and were probably collected up early on due to them being recognized as rare even back then.

So the chances of seeing originals today are very very slim. Probably 95-99% of snow camos are fake in the collecting world today (my estimates).

Then add an exotic freshie tiger-stripe motif to it and you are probably venturing into the 99.99% chance of it being a replica.

So regardless of how an exotic freshie snow camo appears, my figures are indicating to me that such a helmet is most likely a replica.

 

[M45]

Centerpiece on GHW2

Not a chance, IMO.

 

[mcorioles]

Centerpiece on GHW2

Not a chance, IMO.

That's my lid.Probably my fault because they were just for a all inclusive category.I will post good pics.Nothing wrong with this lid.

My question to you is how could you tell just from the pics?
It's been featured before on there so I know they know what it looks like with proper pics.
I certainly wouldn't judge this camo by these pics.

It's been owned by several on GHW all good reviews and no Im not " one of the boys" over there.


Seems like every decent camo here gets trashed IMHO.


Proper pics.
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/46179-m40-normandy-tiger/

 

[M45]

That's my lid.Probably my fault because they were just for a all inclusive category.I will post good pics.Nothing wrong with this lid.

My question to you is how could you tell just from the pics?
It's been featured before on there so I know they know what it looks like with proper pics.
I certainly wouldn't judge this camo by these pics.

It's been owned by several on GHW all good reviews and no Im not " one of the boys" over there.


Seems like every decent camo here gets trashed IMHO.


Proper pics.
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/46179-m40-normandy-tiger/

Although the pics aren't the greatest, I can see classic characteristics of an 'exotic freshie'. A nice exotic stripped pattern, rich bright vibrant colors, seemingly no age to the paint, odd wear patterns - a well distributed minor wear which is unnatural, IMO. I would have expected to see heavier wear to the crown, near 100% coverage despite being a camo - often front line helmets (OK, possibly static defense) it has that 'used but not abused look that we like to see'.

Contrast this with those I consider authentic, many of which have a dead, flat paint with age - not rich bright and shiny. The camo scheme itself is often unremarkable, simply blotches of two or three colors here and there, often not an exotic stripped motif or wild polka-dots. Also many show considerable wear to the crown, exposing the factory paint underneath. Exotic freshies, on the other hand, rarely show exposed factory paint underneath.


Realize that some forums are heavily involved with helmet dealers. And since original exotic camos are rare but demand is high, it may be in the interest of some to 'teach' helmet forum members what 'real camos' look like. If members can be conditioned to seeing questionable camos repeatedly vetted on these forums, then certain unscrupulous dealers can have a healthy market to peddle loads of exotic freshies. And since exotic freshies can be painted up and cooked to order or en masse with seemingly no end to them popping up out of the woodwork, then a good business can be generated. I think this has been happening for some time now.

Yes indeed, many exotic freshies have been trashed on this thread.

 

[capt14k]

I just wanted to say this thread is very informative. Also I never had a desire to collect helmets before, but after reading through this thread I definitely never will. I can't believe how many fakes are out there, and how much disagreement there is about something being fake. If I ever did get the itch I will be sure to check in to this thread again.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[NathanLM]

I just wanted to say this thread is very informative. Also I never had a desire to collect helmets before, but after reading through this thread I definitely never will. I can't believe how many fakes are out there, and how much disagreement there is about something being fake. If I ever did get the itch I will be sure to check in to this thread again.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I just started helmet collecting this year. It has been incredibly fun an rewarding. Because of the rampant fakery in camos, I have stuck to collecting helmets in factory configurations. Much less risk. I highly recommend getting into helmets

 

[M45]

Winter Camos

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/42673-show-your-helmets-with-partial-winter-paint/page-3

I wanted to illustrate the extreme rarity of the white painted winter camo in the collecting world today, and why that any you see are probably in the range of 95-99% fake.

For one thing, applying white paint was only one way to achieve a snow camo. The other was with white wash, the more preferred way, the remnants of which can be seen on surviving examples. As per the photo, other ways to achieve snow camo was with white hoods and white camo covers, factory made or makeshift.

If the war had ended during winter of 1944-45 I don't doubt we would have seen more original white painted snow camos in collections today. But since the war ended in May 1945, those former white painted snow camos had acquired reissue finishes to cover up the glaring white targets.

 

[mrfarb]

I just wanted to say this thread is very informative. Also I never had a desire to collect helmets before, but after reading through this thread I definitely never will. I can't believe how many fakes are out there, and how much disagreement there is about something being fake. If I ever did get the itch I will be sure to check in to this thread again.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Me personally, I don't try to buy camo's. I just have a good repro camo as an example.

 

[mcorioles]

Although the pics aren't the greatest, I can see classic characteristics of an 'exotic freshie'. A nice exotic stripped pattern, rich bright vibrant colors, seemingly no age to the paint, odd wear patterns - a well distributed minor wear which is unnatural, IMO. I would have expected to see heavier wear to the crown, near 100% coverage despite being a camo - often front line helmets (OK, possibly static defense) it has that 'used but not abused look that we like to see'.

Contrast this with those I consider authentic, many of which have a dead, flat paint with age - not rich bright and shiny. The camo scheme itself is often unremarkable, simply blotches of two or three colors here and there, often not an exotic stripped motif or wild polka-dots. Also many show considerable wear to the crown, exposing the factory paint underneath. Exotic freshies, on the other hand, rarely show exposed factory paint underneath.


Realize that some forums are heavily involved with helmet dealers. And since original exotic camos are rare but demand is high, it may be in the interest of some to 'teach' helmet forum members what 'real camos' look like. If members can be conditioned to seeing questionable camos repeatedly vetted on these forums, then certain unscrupulous dealers can have a healthy market to peddle loads of exotic freshies. And since exotic freshies can be painted up and cooked to order or en masse with seemingly no end to them popping up out of the woodwork, then a good business can be generated. I think this has been happening for some time now.

Yes indeed, many exotic freshies have been trashed on this thread.

There is obvious patina and the wear as shown in the pics is not fresh.

I understand totally the skepticism and when approaching a helmet like this I take extra precautions.

If there are worn old beat up camos,there are ones that saw light,moderate and heavy wear available.

Obviously the worn old beat up ones saw more action,possibly stored bad and played with by kids.

If this is easy to accept then we also must accept the opposite.

It's possible even that this lid was picked up with not a lot of use after camo application and dirty and cleaned by the vet then put in storage.

Can you point out the wear issues you gave and why.Stating fresh vibrant " exotic freshie look" really doesn't mean a lot.

 

[capt14k]

I probably shouldn't be commenting since I know nothing about helmets, but couldn't the one in post 942 look different as far as finish sheen goes than the third one in post 947 because of lighting and camera? I've taken pics of rifles with cheap camera and bad lighting where the finish looked polyed and in reality it was dull.

I do see the big difference in wear on the top of the helmets.

Keep in mind I know nothing about these other than comparing the two examples.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[mcorioles]

I probably shouldn't be commenting since I know nothing about helmets, but couldn't the one in post 942 look different as far as finish sheen goes than the third one in post 947 because of lighting and camera? I've taken pics of rifles with cheap camera and bad lighting where the finish looked polyed and in reality it was dull.

I do see the big difference in wear on the top of the helmets.

Keep in mind I know nothing about these other than comparing the two examples.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Your post is common sense regardless of knowledge of helmets.It applies to everything.

That's why I posted the link to the good pics.Did you see those above ^^^^?

The 2 M45 posted were just quickly taken with a I Pad.That helmet is well known and I posted it in a thread with many others,assuming those there knew already what it looked like with proper pictures.

That's why I asked him how he could tell from the original 2 bad pictures he referenced.

Seems like he already had his mind made up just from the pattern and freshness?

 

[M45]

Some GHW2 partial snow camos that I do not care for.

 

[M45]

Your post is common sense regardless of knowledge of helmets.It applies to everything.

That's why I posted the link to the good pics.Did you see those above ^^^^?

The 2 M45 posted were just quickly taken with a I Pad.That helmet is well known and I posted it in a thread with many others,assuming those there knew already what it looked like with proper pictures.

That's why I asked him how he could tell from the original 2 bad pictures he referenced.

Seems like he already had his mind made up just from the pattern and freshness?

Here are some of the better photos. One thing that I would add is the active rust and the micro-spatter, which is indicative of modern spray equipment, IMO. I will admit that the scratched info is a nice touch.

I posted two (EDIT: three) other camos for comparison. Notice the schemes on these, no fancy tiger stripes, no wild wavy lines, no SS style dot pattern. These are very unremarkable as to scheme.

Notice the deadness and flatness of the paint, not rich bright vibrant colors. These helmets are unobtrusive; they are trying to hide. The bright tiger-stripe example on the other hand, seems to be drawing attention to itself.

Most camo creators are making camos fit for a war movie; freshly painted up for the time period. They don't seem to realize that 70 years of age and oxidation has taken it's toll on originals.

 

[M45]

Bombay tv

Bombay TV discusses exotic freshies.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/agency-en-09195a2de1a5c7fbb7706e444f651ca9.html



Sham Pain customer wants a refund.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/communication-en-7336ffa2e29adbe65eab140d98fd01f0.html



Exotic Freshie Birthday Gift

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/art-en-c248e61280fcf3f6793df32cece1cba2.html



The Helmet Gods Speak

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/pub-en-9083746e164f101db7b2d32c40af8d35.html



C-SS is Fake

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/graphiste-en-902b95654cc257050446fcbc94d1f721.html



Helmet Faker Rejoices

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/identity-en-b98e0e8234ea38b97ab201b3c6aa1f7a.html



Helmet Dealer

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/agency-en-19907942b1f067c9a8b30041b90bb1da.html



Payment for good work.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/webdesign-en-3d439e05928480fbcac4a48ddc140c51.html



The real champagnes.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/logo-en-84002607cdb8adc65aa3986aafdc1d83.html



How's our fake camo stock ?

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/agence-en-df8ba86514a174f2f593c900a5e23659.html



Diapers.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/pub-en-128281da7d09a2c325d246659ebd8f10.html


fat check

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/logo-en-2e92e536f8c500c0021ee15a5abd5bb6.html


End of a helmet faker.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/graphic-en-bbcc9b3958a600bd3f404bbba6a74bfa.html


SOS

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/creation-en-e2c163d7a04e633a0a6b3808a46fa4fb.html


Fake Camo Factory.

https://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/art-en-7db3efe3bf1c2bef658818aaa2973256.html

 

[Frank F.]

70 year old paint

Not a helmet, but my yardstick for ordnance tan color...

F.

 

[ZF41 K98k]

Not a helmet, but my yardstick for ordnance tan color...

F.

Unfortunately, ordnance tan is not a colour you can have a 'yardstick' for though... there were many variations from 1943-45

 

[KSH67]

Amen to that, it seems everytime I see a true ordnance tan it seems I am seeing a new ordnance tan. Seems shade/darkness variations abound as well as yellowness seems to go from very light to pretty dark almost a green color. One place I always check out is the inside of lids or hinges where sun doesn't hit and stays a bit cleaner.

M45 - What color RAL wise would you call the green in the second camo you posted above in terms of what you would expect to see? I am curious as I have seen that as a complete single color camo before.
Thanks
Kevin

Unfortunately, ordnance tan is not a colour you can have a 'yardstick' for though... there were many variations from 1943-45

 

[Frank F.]

Unfortunately, ordnance tan is not a colour you can have a 'yardstick' for though... there were many variations from 1943-45

Not talking so much about a specific shade, more about the appearance of the paint. I realize RAL 7028 came in different hues, but this is not fresh looking paint — and that's what I tried to communicate.

Here's one I believe to be original — the tan is more on the green side:



F.

 

[M45]

Amen to that, it seems everytime I see a true ordnance tan it seems I am seeing a new ordnance tan. Seems shade/darkness variations abound as well as yellowness seems to go from very light to pretty dark almost a green color. One place I always check out is the inside of lids or hinges where sun doesn't hit and stays a bit cleaner.

M45 - What color RAL wise would you call the green in the second camo you posted above in terms of what you would expect to see? I am curious as I have seen that as a complete single color camo before.
Thanks
Kevin

According to this, the green is RAL 6003
http://www.panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

On 18 February 1943, all vehicles were ordered to be painted in a base coat of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (dark yellow). Only small pieces of equipment were to retain their previous color. On top of the Dunkelgelb base coat, stripes of Rotbraun RAL 8017 (red-brown) and Olivgrün RAL 6003 (olive green) was applied.

 

[ZF41 K98k]

Some of the tan shades seen do have a green hue, which I believe is what Kevin was referring to. Rather than it being actual green (RAL 6003).