Questionable Camos

[M45]

Beaded DD civic police camo ???

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52594-3-colour-camo-m40-police-dd-ns66/

A beaded DD civic police combat camo, if you can believe that. A ridiculous concept IMO that civic helmets received elaborate camo paint schemes for combat. If anything, I would expect reissues of black (Volkssturm) or dark green.

I'm sure civic helmets were pressed into combat, but that would have been very late, like Battle of Berlin late. Elaborate field modifications do not make sense to me that late in the war.

Added to that, the camo itself looks horrible; fine micro-spatter indicative of modern spray equipment, no age to the paint whatsoever, lots of fresh dings among pristine conditioned paint.

A nice civic helmet ruined for those 'snake-fascinated' camo seekers.



Uh-oh, here I am commenting on GHW2 comments again (you bad boy!). I interpret most comments as such; it is rare and strange to see a beaded camo, but this one seems to prove to them that they did exist.

"This helmet is quite unbelievable, not in a bad sense....how many chances to see a beaded camo?!? Very interesting. as a DD M40 I would deem it was a Polizei once... this would support(s) the theory (not a mystery) that many [beaded helmets] were used for combat purposes lately and not just for civil use."

I see several problems with the above line of reasoning; quite unbelievable and rarely seen helmets are often that way for a reason (they are not real). Now we have a helmet that supports our 'theory' that many beaded helmets were used for combat purposes.

And while I do not doubt that some civic helmets were used for combat purposes very late in the war (re: battle of Berlin), I have issues with them receiving elaborate 3-color combat camo schemes.

"Super combat police camo!"

The thing about TR era field police, is that they used their double decals as an identifier like modern day military police use armbands to easily identify themselves. When viewing a field police helmet from either side, it was apparent who they were, as no other branch put a party colors shield on the right side of the helmet (unlike SS). Similar to civic police, the last thing they wanted to do was cover up/remove their helmet decals which identified them as police.

So unless the helmet was reissued as a generic (which I have one of those) I do not see authentic field police helmets having their decals removed/covered/camoed over like other branches.

Contrast this questionable camo with the KM camo just below and note the differences.

 

[Nzef1940]

Another for review please

 

[Frank F.]

Another for review please

Hey Mike:

Good to see you here! As I've said: my knowledge about Camos is rudimentary, at best.

That said: this one is not giving me the warm and fuzzies I got from the one you sold me. Looks gorgeous but would stick out next to every other lid I own, and those are my only yard sticks.

I've been wrong before, let's here what the experts say.

F.

 

[Nzef1940]

More pics of same lid.

 

[Hambone]

More pics of same lid.

With the different pics I tend to like it more than I don't. Camo helmets from Internet pics generally fall into three categories for me:

1) Humper, don't need to hold it, wouldn't cross a show aisle to pick it up (no sense in trying to pick up a turd by the clean end).
2) Maybe, want to hold it, would cross a show aisle to examine it for possible purchase.
3) Yes, pretty obvious original, shell at least, would move quick across the show aisle to get it in hand so no one else could.

This helmet is a solid "maybe" for me. If it was for sale I would have an interest and want an in hand and inspection period.

 

[Nzef1940]

Would be curious to know M45's view on these two?

 

[M45]

With the different pics I tend to like it more than I don't. Camo helmets from Internet pics generally fall into three categories for me:

1) Humper, don't need to hold it, wouldn't cross a show aisle to pick it up (no sense in trying to pick up a turd by the clean end).
2) Maybe, want to hold it, would cross a show aisle to examine it for possible purchase.
3) Yes, pretty obvious original, shell at least, would move quick across the show aisle to get it in hand so no one else could.

This helmet is a solid "maybe" for me. If it was for sale I would have an interest and want an in hand and inspection period.

Excellent internet camo analysis criterion, IMO. I concur; certainly has potential but would need an in-hand for verification as the photos apparently do not do it justice. I wish there could be more precision, but we are talking about photos alone.

Anyone care to comment on the beaded camo ?

 

[M45]

m40-kriegsmarine-3-tone-camo-helmet

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52569-m40-kriegsmarine-3-tone-camo-helmet-single-decal-last-post/

This authentic (IMO) KM camo is a nice contrast to the typical 'questionable camo'. Plenty of varied wear and a heavily worn crown down to factory RTGG green gray. Notice what's happening on top; camo nearly worn off to factory paint, in turn worn down to a nice smooth rust patina.

When you see your next questionable camo, compare it with originals like this one and see how many differences there are.

 

[Warrior1354]

I'm not much of helmet collecter but that looks like honest wear and aging too me. Kind of reminds of the same color tone and wear from looking at a older car from the 40s and 50s.

But some of these camo helmets that have been coming out look the paint was applied yestetday. Oh it was.

 

[ZF41 K98k]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52569-m40-kriegsmarine-3-tone-camo-helmet-single-decal-last-post/

When you see your next questionable camo, compare it with originals like this one and see how many differences there are.

So lets compare all helmets with ones so heavily worn like this, then we'll be okay? So heavy wear means original, no/little wear means fake. End of story?

IMHO that is a totally flawed assessment. Many (maybe most!) of the original camos we see today are IMO probably leaning towards the "less worn" end of the spectrum. Why? Camo paint by nature essentially means a 'reissue' finish, so inherently less time for it to age and wear. The necessity for camo paint also usually means frontline combat (exceptions being KM Coastal Artillery, Polizei maybe... etc) and then therefore more likely to be captured!! That's key. Once this is the case, and a helmet is now in someone else's hands (i.e no longer in active service as it were), the only 'wear' that may befall that helmet from then (70+ years ago) until now could be very slight storage wear and up - poor garage storage, kids toy etc etc...

 

[M45]

My 'flawed assessment' is that original camos were usually front line helmets that saw some of the heaviest action. This is apparent on many authentic camos (re: crown paint worn down to factory paint worn to rust patina). The camo went through WWII with the helmet.

Questionable camos, on the other hand, often have a postwar applied finish that DID NOT see WWII and thus there will be a disparity of wear/age between the faux camo and the rest of the helmet. You will see artificial aging/wear, tooling marks among pristine conditioned paint.



-Many (maybe most!) of the original camos we see today are IMO probably leaning towards the "less worn" end of the spectrum. Why? Camo paint by nature essentially means a 'reissue' finish, so inherently less time for it to age and wear.



Another way to look at this is that there have been so many questionable camos with such good conditioned finishes vetted over the years, that collectors have become accustomed to seeing so much good conditioned camo paint.

Also consider that many authentic combat worn camos are well beat and are missing a significant portion of the camo (like the KM above). Helmet collectors, being the condition freaks that we are, tend to gravitate toward those helmets in better condition; many camo collectors are no different. That's why IMO these "used but not abused" questionable camos are so popular, near 100% of the finish remains with a nice evenly distributed wear.

"just the way we want to see them"

 

[Nzef1940]

Both my camos posted are 100% , even from the images alone that should be clear.

Interesting forum with much food for thought.

I also belong to the other two main forums which are dumbing down with each passing day...

I agree with 90% of this thread overall assessments but see a few babies being thrown out with the bath water!

Good luck and all the best.

 

[M45]

OK. I'll post some of my helmets here that are not already shown and am willing to discuss differences between my repaints (aka fakes) and original helmets. Did this on GHW for a while until the mods decided the thread had run its course. Same may happen here. Not an issue for me.

Here's my approach to forum discussion - I'll post pictures and answer questions about my repaints. But I won't respond to personal insults. I don't make time for that. Also, I won't get into long, circular ethical arguments about the impacts of what I do.

There may be times when I seem absent or unresponsive. It's because sometimes I lose interest.

On GHW I've already discussed ad-nauseam the matter of how I mark my repaints. When I sell on ebay I use white paint on the interior. I admit that NOT ALL my repaints are marked. What I will say is that I have never nor will I ever sell one of my repaints as real. Of course that doesn't prevent someone else from doing so. I'll call out anyone I know of that does. I don't claim to be an angel. It is what it is. Almost nobody in this hobby is without sin.

I've been doing repaints for about 13 years. My technique has evolved over time but is not yet perfect. Perfection is always the goal, be it attainable or not. It's possible for the trained eye to spot my work. (To clear up an issue, my repaints are done on shells that have already been post-war painted. They are repaints both inside and out. I do not alter helmets with original paint unless the paint is so far gone as to be worthless).

I do it because:

I'm pretty good (not perfect) at it
It allows people who can't afford an expensive helmet to have what looks like one for much less
It keeps the price of original camos from going through the roof
It fills a niche for the person who considers collecting camos too much of a risk and would rather have what he KNOWS is a repaint.

For those new to this hobby -

Know that it is and has been a minefield for a long, long time. Just a sampling of threads on this or other forums and you'll know what I mean. Almost everyone, including me, has been ripped-off at some point. The importance is to learn from it so that it seldom happens.

In addition to fake and real helmets, decal hoaxes, and dealer reputations, the hobby is full of personal egos. Beware of the know-it-alls and hot-heads who claim divine knowledge, righteous authority, or moral superiority because they're self-appointed members of some exclusive collector's club. The savy collector will be objective, cool-headed, courteous, and above all, educated in the hobby.

Rex

Welcome Rex. Your expertise will be highly valued here. Like stars in the night sky, some helmet forums grow brighter while others grow dimmer.

 

[Ruffin]

Welcome Rex. Your expertise will be highly valued here. Like stars in the night sky, some helmet forums grow brighter while others grow dimmer.

Thanks Brian. Forums ARE like variable stars.

Rex

 

[Ruffin]

M40 Sud Front camo. Note the wear indicating the helmet once had a chicken wire half basket placed over it. A couple of things that add to the realism of this helmet are the rust bleed-thru and the wear on the green over-spray exposing the underlying tan.

The chips and scratches on this helmet are typical of my repaints. Every faker has their own style of wear patterns that are similar in appearance on each helmet they create. It's like a signature. This is a key to spotting my work and the work of other fakers who crank out multiple helmets.

 

[Ruffin]

This isn't a camo but I'll put it here. It's a M42 chicken wire. Can you spot the issue? Look at the pics.

Overall pretty good. Even some oxidation formed between the wire and shell. But look at the overall appearance. Lots of light-colored orange rust. This is oxidation that's on the surface and does not penetrate to the shell. It CAN happen under damp storage conditions but is often an indicator of fakes. The orange rust can be eliminated with a little oil on a rag but it will reappear after about 1 to 2 weeks depending on local humidity.

 

[DaveDavis]

My 'flawed assessment' is that original camos were usually front line helmets that saw some of the heaviest action. This is apparent on many authentic camos (re: crown paint worn down to factory paint worn to rust patina). The camo went through WWII with the helmet.

Questionable camos, on the other hand, often have a postwar applied finish that DID NOT see WWII and thus there will be a disparity of wear/age between the faux camo and the rest of the helmet. You will see artificial aging/wear, tooling marks among pristine conditioned paint.



-Many (maybe most!) of the original camos we see today are IMO probably leaning towards the "less worn" end of the spectrum. Why? Camo paint by nature essentially means a 'reissue' finish, so inherently less time for it to age and wear.



Another way to look at this is that there have been so many questionable camos with such good conditioned finishes vetted over the years, that collectors have become accustomed to seeing so much good conditioned camo paint.

Also consider that many authentic combat worn camos are well beat and are missing a significant portion of the camo (like the KM above). Helmet collectors, being the condition freaks that we are, tend to gravitate toward those helmets in better condition; many camo collectors are no different. That's why IMO these "used but not abused" questionable camos are so popular, near 100% of the finish remains with a nice evenly distributed wear.

"just the way we want to see them"

Let me just say this, helmets take a beating in service. When I was a Drill Sergeant in the mid 1970s, we repainted the helmets and liners issued to the Trainees after each 8 week cycle, because the troops beat the shite out of their helmets and at least 50% of the paint would be missing on average by the time graduation rolled around. Like wise helmets worn in the field, especially in combat, really suffer. You use them for everything, from a makeshift seat, to keep your tired a$$ out of the mud, to head protection, to you name it. I remember some guys used the old M1 steel pot to drive tent pegs into the ground. Usually both you, and the helmet, look like 9 miles of shite.

 

[M45]

http://www.italianwarfront.com/?page_id=9

German war world two M-42 tropical paintbrush painted combat helmet named. Absolutely untouched with the original liner and chinstrap never replaced. Helmet size 64/57 with liner band dated 1943. Interesting last name, this one probably used in North Africa or Italy sud-front.
$2,550

This slate gray ckl M42 is too late for Afrika, but this may be ordinance tan ? The CONDITION on this thing is fantastic; used but not abused - just the way we like to see them. The condition of the interior paint on the detail shots is PHENOMENAL; untouched it seems. A bit of paint on the band and chinstrap bales - a nice touch.

In the past I would have been in with both feet with something like this, but now I know that things are often NOT as they appear.

A tan helmet in this condition should sell for considerably more, should it not ?

 

[Ruffin]

Agree that the ckl shell and 1943 dated liner cut it too close to reliably say this helmet was used in North Africa. What I find strange is that the liner looks almost brand new - like it hardly spent any time on a soldier's head. Doesn't match the wear on the outside of the shell or the rim. It's a tropical camo. I would expect that even after a few months of use in a warm environment there would be sweat stains on the liner. The paint and wear look pretty good but this is one I'd loose sleep over.

 

[Spoof]

I would consider the scratching on the flat spring an issue. The liner has been tugged on a lot causing the 2 flat springs to rub together as if the re installment of rivets took place. It's clear the liner is not original to the shell.