mauser99
Senior Member
I have to agree.. Im not a fan the red is off. The green is also off compared to other IE real green and red camo Para's that many abound and were posted..
Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
M45
Well-known member
Other than having the appearance of being painted 6 hours ago, and clearly no wear patina whatsoever, another aspect I don't think has been mentioned is how the thick camo paint tends to "glue down" the liner rivets/bolts.
On original camos that have been actually used in combat/service, those rivets and bolts move around during use. It is just a fact. So the camo paint near the rivets will wear away as the helmet is worn, freeing the rivets/bolts.
On questionable camos, these helmets have never been worn in combat, so the rivets stay glued down by the camo paint. The glued down rivets/bolts on a camo is basically a dead giveaway, IMO.
On original camos that have been actually used in combat/service, those rivets and bolts move around during use. It is just a fact. So the camo paint near the rivets will wear away as the helmet is worn, freeing the rivets/bolts.
On questionable camos, these helmets have never been worn in combat, so the rivets stay glued down by the camo paint. The glued down rivets/bolts on a camo is basically a dead giveaway, IMO.
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Wow that looks like utter garbage, like a high school art project. Who would buy this?
To make this turd authentic, they are claiming that it was owned by a respected collector of spiked helmets. I guess somehow knowing leather and brass makes you an authority on camo paratrooper stuff? Alright…
mauser202
Senior Member
Ok, now I feel stupid, must be legit then If some old French guy got it in the 60’s. They should have started with that statement and any doubt would have been dismissed.
I like M45’s point on the rivets, movement and paint. That makes a lot of sense and is something I have casually noticed on many so called original camos that I didn’t care for, but didn’t make the connection until I read it. I have never owned a FJ, but would love to one day. Having not owned one; do the bolts actually move like a rivet would? They seam much more secure being screwed in vs. a split leg rivet.
I like M45’s point on the rivets, movement and paint. That makes a lot of sense and is something I have casually noticed on many so called original camos that I didn’t care for, but didn’t make the connection until I read it. I have never owned a FJ, but would love to one day. Having not owned one; do the bolts actually move like a rivet would? They seam much more secure being screwed in vs. a split leg rivet.
M45
Well-known member
You have a point. The colors themselves should be analyzed and compared with known originals. But what if the colors were bang-on correct ? And what if the ageing was just right, so that the thing actually APPEARED to be an authentic 75 year old relic ? Would you purchase this as authentic based only on APPEARANCES (colors/aging) ? If your answer is yes, then you have just discovered what is driving the fake camo industry.
As with many fields of collecting, fakers are replicating items to APPEAR authentic. The pricing is for AUTHENTIC items. How much would an authentic MINTY camo para sell for these days ? 15K, 20K. 30K ? Now, how much would a complete M38 sell for with exterior paint severely damaged or missing entirely ? Subtract this price from the MINTY price and you have the dollar amount of profit for the faker.
If you think it is a matter of He said/she said, then subject the helmet to a forensic analysis of the camo paint.
BTW: I do recall the sale of a postwar chrome plated M38 helmet with original components selling in the recent past.
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M45
Well-known member
History does seem to repeat itself, at least on WAF. I recall a certain M38 camo (rust washed) that a lot of heavy hitters over there liked. I believe I counted at least 24 posts of members lining up and gushing over it. This was in 2008 and I ended up getting banned over criticizing it. I heard it had sold for 30K.
M45
Well-known member
Yes, M38 bolts could become loose over time due to service wear. There were double bolts on these but no modern lock washers. These could become so loose that the bolts would fall off. There are period photos of M38s with missing bolts that were replaced with split rivets, other types of bolts/screws and even loops of wire.
M45
Well-known member
The WAF post on this MINTY M38 camo may indicate a fundamental shift in emphasis from Questionable camos with fair amounts of distressing to MINTY camos. If collectors are getting wise to all of the fake distressing, chipping red rust and rust pitting, fakers need to change their strategy. In the near future we may begin seeing loads of MINTY camos being 'found' in the woodwork, appearing on dealer's sites and vetted on forums as authentic.
M45
Well-known member
Yes indeed. I believe you may be referring to helmets such as this one. These MINTY camos have historically been in the minority.
I think the collecting community is being PREPARED for a massive influx of MINTY camos. Most of the questionable camos in this thread were created in a minty state before being subjected to the DISTRESS phase of the creation process, with often fair to poor results. Of course there are those who do much better at this, but typically the distressing is obviously contrived: hard breaks from the popped off paint, red rust, bubbling rust, bleedover rust, rust pitting, etc...etc...
We are seeing well-respected forums with well respected mods and their friends vetting minty camos. If people with 20+ years experience in the field like it, it must be authentic, right ? I expect to see more minty camos for sale on respected dealer sites.
PHASE 1 comprised of slapping fake and original decals on factory ND, reissued ND and well worn helmets to increase their value (going on for decades). There was a shift to high gear in the mid 90s with the CHAMPAGNE-SS fraud involving micro-painting SS bugs on helmets to GREATLY increase value. A $500 ND M42 suddenly became a $5K-$12K unissued SS helmet.
PHASE 2 was the entry of large scale Questionable Camos on the scene beginning roughly in the early 2000s. As Lot# research and Decal research began exposing many postwar modified factory decaled helmets for what they were, Questionable Camos shifited to high gear, becoming very popular on helmet forums.
PHASE 3 Probably due to forums like this one exposing the distressing techniques seen on so many questionable camos and causing a re-think in the collecting community, a shift to MINTY camos may be in the works. If a camo is in a MINTY state, there is no need to explain away all of the suspicious distressing. Now if you stare at a MINTY camo long enough and imagine hard enough, it becomes real, especially if you have period photos depicting the styles of MINTY camos you are holding.
I think the collecting community is being PREPARED for a massive influx of MINTY camos. Most of the questionable camos in this thread were created in a minty state before being subjected to the DISTRESS phase of the creation process, with often fair to poor results. Of course there are those who do much better at this, but typically the distressing is obviously contrived: hard breaks from the popped off paint, red rust, bubbling rust, bleedover rust, rust pitting, etc...etc...
We are seeing well-respected forums with well respected mods and their friends vetting minty camos. If people with 20+ years experience in the field like it, it must be authentic, right ? I expect to see more minty camos for sale on respected dealer sites.
PHASE 1 comprised of slapping fake and original decals on factory ND, reissued ND and well worn helmets to increase their value (going on for decades). There was a shift to high gear in the mid 90s with the CHAMPAGNE-SS fraud involving micro-painting SS bugs on helmets to GREATLY increase value. A $500 ND M42 suddenly became a $5K-$12K unissued SS helmet.
PHASE 2 was the entry of large scale Questionable Camos on the scene beginning roughly in the early 2000s. As Lot# research and Decal research began exposing many postwar modified factory decaled helmets for what they were, Questionable Camos shifited to high gear, becoming very popular on helmet forums.
PHASE 3 Probably due to forums like this one exposing the distressing techniques seen on so many questionable camos and causing a re-think in the collecting community, a shift to MINTY camos may be in the works. If a camo is in a MINTY state, there is no need to explain away all of the suspicious distressing. Now if you stare at a MINTY camo long enough and imagine hard enough, it becomes real, especially if you have period photos depicting the styles of MINTY camos you are holding.
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mauser202
Senior Member
All of the fakery make it difficult for me to actually want spend money in this hobby, not that I’m sitting on a pile of it anyway ;-). Scandals like the Champagne Rune, that were propped up knowingly or unknowingly by so many dealers and collectors makes it hard to trust people’s opinions on items. Even books and museums are full of fakes making it hard to get a solid education in the hobby. As these fakes age, it will will near impossible for future collectors to truly know if they have an original WWII item.
It is truly disheartening that greedy A holes ruin the innocence and joy of collecting hobbies.
It is truly disheartening that greedy A holes ruin the innocence and joy of collecting hobbies.
I hear you. But long ago I decided it’s OUR hobby, not theirs and I’m not letting scumbags run me out of my hobby I enjoy. I’ll run them out of our hobby. Unless you don’t have a hobby or are involved in a hobby collecting worthless things, like roadside garbage or gravel, there will always be hucksters, fakers, and humpers. We’ve done a pretty good job on the K98k side I think.
Yes, this is an evolution in the field of collecting WWII German helmets. This helmet you gave is an extreme example of " exotic one looker " even as Germans the masters of camouflage of their era. I meant all Norwegian multicolored camouflages that do not even have a gram of patina (original paint oxidizes by itself gets a characteristic patina), even lying in these cavernous woodwork and chests. If it was you who would post such a helmet, especially from another account with which no one would link you, I have no illusions - it would be rejected in the blink of an eye. If they are pasted by Norwegian "collectors", they are one lookers. Apparently the Norwegian climate works like a time machine
And it's like you say - Writing books to build credibility, prove originality, create history (in this case, the Norwegian mint of Norwegian camo). there are already books on Norwegian camo that will authenticate dubious/fake helmets. Getting used to the appearance without patina has been going on for a long time. But it seems to be gaining momentum creating a new trend in the field. The thread about this m38 confirms it.
All my opinions: But but it's Willi Z approved
That thing is ridiculous. They've censored, banned, and disgusted away valuable discussion that would have a positive impact upon the integrity of German helmet collecting. Without transparency and open discussion, and worse, censorship to protect certain little groups and sellers, you get high priced "exotic freshies" blessed by bobbleheads. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't contaminate and pollute the knowledge base. I believe DougB had to purchase his own helmet site in order to be able to expose the "Great Champagne Rune Fraud" and XRFacts. It was exposed here and a USMF, a US helmet forum, not at a German helmet forum which should have been the proper venue for intelligent discussion, not shilling.Never forget:
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Ole Nutmeg proclaimed XRFacts to be "excellent at detecting bad decals". The irony there is XRFacts was used and proclaimed as "scientific authentication" of the Champagne Rune "decals" which were, in fact, not decals at all but airbrushed paint. My opinions of course.
Without a healthy, transparent, non-censoring forum as a "home" for German helmet collecting, it's going to age out, like American Civil War collecting, due to all the fakery and the feeling that new guys develop that they can't trust the hobby. Most adults with some common sense can look at these "exotic freshies" and understand that they aren't original.
Without a healthy, transparent, non-censoring forum as a "home" for German helmet collecting, it's going to age out, like American Civil War collecting, due to all the fakery and the feeling that new guys develop that they can't trust the hobby. Most adults with some common sense can look at these "exotic freshies" and understand that they aren't original.
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I agree - that's why a few statements earlier I said that this hobby tends to fall. There is huge money in this business. Hence opinion-forming circles and adoring camo helmets from their own circle. Few people can look from a broader perspective - you have to stay in the topic and observe thematic forums and dealer websites. And also sales departments on these forums. When you start to combine some facts and experiences from the past (champagne runes rollers, XRFactsFakers ) many things are obvious. The problem is with guys who enter the hobby with lots of cash and no knowledge. In a way, knowledge costs money.
) many things are obvious. The problem is with guys who enter the hobby with lots of cash and no knowledge. In a way, knowledge costs money.Doubtful (for me not original) SS camo from a large European dealer.Price near 5000Euro. First of all, a decal - in my opinion this is classic old copy of ET with a round bottom. Secondly, abusive wear patterns. Thirdly, the helmet and the decal were washed with solvent so that it was impossible to assess the details and patina, color and method of application. A lovely red crayon line and the number 15 on the dome. Dome with no real wear patterns just hard chips. The interior is my hit. In one of the photos, the green camo paint lies in rust pits. the painter ran out of patience to keep cleaning every hole . Before 04 there are remnants of another digit - eaten away by rust and thickly painted over. Additionally, at the top of the number 4, there is a deep corrosion pit painted over with paint. The numbers minted have some imperfections, but no craters of old rust. Was this really painted before May 8, 1945??? I don't know, but I can guess. The most important thing is that the customer is satisfied. If you want, I will post more such questionable rarities (from the higher shelf).
. Before 04 there are remnants of another digit - eaten away by rust and thickly painted over. Additionally, at the top of the number 4, there is a deep corrosion pit painted over with paint. The numbers minted have some imperfections, but no craters of old rust. Was this really painted before May 8, 1945??? I don't know, but I can guess. The most important thing is that the customer is satisfied. If you want, I will post more such questionable rarities (from the higher shelf).Attachments
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M45
Well-known member
Plenty of RED flags on this one:
1. European Dealer. The former occupied countries are a hotbed of fakes of all kinds. I would caution anyone against buying anything supposedly 'field modified' from Europe.
2. The LOW price. If this were a verified vet acquired original camo SD SS helmet, the price would likely be closer to 10K+.
3. Relic condition shell. Yes there were loads of German helmets left in Europe after the war, but very few people cared for them over the decades (proper storage). As a result, there are vast numbers of relic condition helmets, this being one of them with rust pitting. No original factory paint that I can see, this example was rebuilt with original liner, pins and probably original chinstrap.
4. HIGHLY DESIRED configuration: a gawd-dammed SS CAMO !!! There are probably more fake SS helmets and SS camo helmets on the planet than any other configuration.
Most of the original really cool helmets (like SS camos) have been collected up decades ago and reside in high end collections. Possibly a very few remain in vets hands or their families. The chances that YOU or your friends are going to find something so exceedingly rare and desirable from a dealer are about as good as winning the lottery. Miracles have happened, but they are called miracles because they almost never do happen.
1. European Dealer. The former occupied countries are a hotbed of fakes of all kinds. I would caution anyone against buying anything supposedly 'field modified' from Europe.
2. The LOW price. If this were a verified vet acquired original camo SD SS helmet, the price would likely be closer to 10K+.
3. Relic condition shell. Yes there were loads of German helmets left in Europe after the war, but very few people cared for them over the decades (proper storage). As a result, there are vast numbers of relic condition helmets, this being one of them with rust pitting. No original factory paint that I can see, this example was rebuilt with original liner, pins and probably original chinstrap.
4. HIGHLY DESIRED configuration: a gawd-dammed SS CAMO !!! There are probably more fake SS helmets and SS camo helmets on the planet than any other configuration.
Most of the original really cool helmets (like SS camos) have been collected up decades ago and reside in high end collections. Possibly a very few remain in vets hands or their families. The chances that YOU or your friends are going to find something so exceedingly rare and desirable from a dealer are about as good as winning the lottery. Miracles have happened, but they are called miracles because they almost never do happen.
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I don't entirely agree. There is no point in eliminating helmets from Europe at the beginning. The biggest scandals with helmets originated in the USA (XR shite, CR and similar. Let's focus on the helmet itself. The origin may be a small or big red flag (exotic Norwegian freshers) but ultimately we judge the helmets themselves.
