Questionable Camos

[Hambone]

That SS camo if fake is at the high end of fakery. Exposed decal a nice touch if bad. That pattern is a known SS camo pattern. SS is not my thing. I avoided SS in the 80s due to the fakery.

 

[M45]

I don't entirely agree. There is no point in eliminating helmets from Europe at the beginning. The biggest scandals with helmets originated in the USA (XR shite, CR and similar. Let's focus on the helmet itself. The origin may be a small or big red flag (exotic Norwegian freshers) but ultimately we judge the helmets themselves.

While you are correct that the big XRFacts and Sham-pain Ruins scandals originated in the USA, the USA is still by far the largest repository of original intact WWII German helmets in the world.

Many of those millions left in Western Europe after the war were reworked for a wide variety of military and civilian units, many were reworked into various farm and kitchen implements and flower pots. Many were buried such as at the 'Big Hole' in Lerenfort Holland. In Western Europe after the war, this stuff was largely seen as junk, being thrown into trash heaps, left outside or in leaky barns to rust away.

It has been estimated that over 1 million German helmets were brought to the US by returning troops during and shortly after the war. Many other originals have been making their way to the US over the decades via gunshows, mail order etc...

The result of this is that much of what is left in Eastern and Western Europe helmet wise today consists largely of reworks and rust buckets. Sure there are European dealers selling original factory helmets today, but if you think there are many original field modified helmets (camos) left, I think you are kidding yourself.

As per judging the helmet itself, I have already done that. It shows prolific rust pitting and no factory paint apparent in the damaged areas of the camo and underside as is seen on known originals.

In other words, it is a typical European camo fake. A rusted relic has been rebuilt with a few hundred dollars in parts to sell as a rare desireable SS Camo for $5000.

 

[tokarev38]

While you are correct that the big XRFacts and Sham-pain Ruins scandals originated in the USA, the USA is still by far the largest repository of original intact WWII German helmets in the world.

Many of those millions left in Western Europe after the war were reworked for a wide variety of military and civilian units, many were reworked into various farm and kitchen implements and flower pots. Many were buried such as at the 'Big Hole' in Lerenfort Holland. In Western Europe after the war, this stuff was largely seen as junk, being thrown into trash heaps, left outside or in leaky barns to rust away.

It has been estimated that over 1 million German helmets were brought to the US by returning troops during and shortly after the war. Many other originals have been making their way to the US over the decades via gunshows, mail order etc...

The result of this is that much of what is left in Eastern and Western Europe helmet wise today consists largely of reworks and rust buckets. Sure there are European dealers selling original factory helmets today, but if you think there are many original field modified helmets (camos) left, I think you are kidding yourself.

As per judging the helmet itself, I have already done that. It shows prolific rust pitting and no factory paint apparent in the damaged areas of the camo and underside as is seen on known originals.

In other words, it is a typical European camo fake. A rusted relic has been rebuilt with a few hundred dollars in parts to sell as a rare desireable SS Camo for $5000.

So true. As a young man growing up in Poland during 1980s it was extremely rare to find a German helmet in original paint or with original liner. Any German helmet. Of course there were examples in collections, but very few unlike on US shows when you see hundreds of them.

 

[Tarnmar44]

Yes, it's true - in most European countries, after the war, no one thought about collecting these things as souvenirs. A different situation in relation to US and even UK soldiers. However, it should be remembered that many of these items returned to Europe - in the age of the Internet, this is not difficult. This SS helmet is by no means high end in this field. It is based on the tortured appearance of the relic. It looks like a typical "Latvian connection" helmet with a replaced insert and the fake patina washed off. Hambone- What do you mean, the famous SS camo pattern?

 

[M45]

A recently posted WAF camo. Natrually, it is very well liked. They have decided it is SUD-FRONT, or southern Russian front (Caucuses). During the Russian Winter Offensive starting in Nov 1942 to include the encirclement of Stalingrad, the Germans had been pushed out of the Caucuses by early 1943. How does a SUD FRONT helmet from later 1942 and far in the East find its way to a Western Collection in 2023 ? Basically the closest Western Allied forces got to Stalingrad was Berlin, a distance of nearly 1400 miles. And how did the helmet stay in such FANTASTIC condition with very well distributed minor wear, with that used-but-not-abused look, just the way we like to see them ?

What is a wakeful dream?
Hypnagogic hallucinations, also sometimes referred to as waking dreams, are a type of hallucination that occurs as a person is drifting off to sleep. In general, hallucinations involve seeing, hearing, feeling, or smelling something that is not actually present. (or how about perceiving authentic qualities in a helmet that do not exist)

Are lucid dreamers rare?
Generally, lucid dreaming is quite rare. Only one half of the general population know the phenomenon from personal experience, approximately 20% have lucid dreams on a monthly basis, and only a minority of approximately 1% have lucid dreams several times a week.

I wonder if a group of people (such as a helmet forum) can induce lucid dreams among themselves ? I would investigate the possibilty of fentanyl residue on these exotic freshie camos.

 

[Tarnmar44]

The conclusion is simple - one looking fake. Typical ebay crap. Personally, I would look at this sticker under a microscope - it may be a decal from dday1944. the right leg suggests this. I'm amused by the condition of the crown and the 100% paint coverage of the rivets... Approving such shitty helmets is for fakers - they have to try less and less and the idiots clap, "fantastic lid", "one looker", "great lid", "amazing", "high end".

 

[mauser99]

I liked it there and i like it here.. No amount of dribble will make me change my mind... If you think that decal is fake you really need to go back to school... sorry. We all have our opinions and what we are comfortable with. I said based off these photos I would pursue further .

The poster who ever he is or was had no clue what the helmet was and was asking opinions.. I think overall this thread has done some good to at least at bare minimum to spread awareness and fear as this is a real problem in the hobby..

Also: to post a comparison look at GB auction # 1010423823 perfectly aged and weathered tan camo painted around decal SS>..

 

[Tarnmar44]

At first glance, the dday1944 sticker is indistinguishable from the original, especially when applied to rough paint. Zooming in with a microscope explains everything. This is the right approach.Microcracks on the decal are easy to make. If this camouflage is original for You- haven't seen much. And creating stories to create an aura of originality, "Hey, what do you think about this helmet because I'm not familiar with the topic" sounds ridiculous and is used by many fakers to create stories and lower vigilance. Post photos of this SS, but the combination: camo + SS (especially with the visible decal) is 99% fake.

 

[mauser99]

i get your point and I was unaware of this NEW to the market toe dot ET which is quite scary !! But, if you compare the two they are not the same..

 

[Tarnmar44]

I can tell you from experience (I saw these decals in person before gluing, after gluing and after aging) that it can be really difficult to make a decision based on such poor, blurry photos. Magnifying a microscope or a good loupe immediately reveals the print (although they are printed on high-class equipment).

 

[Hambone]

The conclusion is simple - one looking fake. Typical ebay crap. Personally, I would look at this sticker under a microscope - it may be a decal from dday1944. the right leg suggests this. I'm amused by the condition of the crown and the 100% paint coverage of the rivets... Approving such shitty helmets is for fakers - they have to try less and less and the idiots clap, "fantastic lid", "one looker", "great lid", "amazing", "high end".

My opinions: that yes-man / toady atmosphere is not one of transparency or objectivity in discussion. You get the prescribed line and it's not as much the artifact as it is the dealer / owner / seller / chain of custody. The site is monetized by dealer banners. Dealers and mods are good buddies. Censorship occurs and no one knows because the posts are disappeared. Censorship occurs under the false flag of "maintaining civility." Threads are locked when they get too far outside of the official line. None of that happens here. There are no banners. The arguments pro and con flow freely. The correct result is reached, or there is enough information for a person who is sentient and intellectually involved in the hobby to make their own determination. Someone who is too lazy and/or senseless to appreciate what takes place here doesn't belong here. There are plenty of forums that cater to pod people.

 

[M45]

In my experience, that decal appears authentic. Keep in mind that postwar altered helmets can fit into a very wide range. Some of the better ones are like what we see here; a 100% SD Heer helmet with all original components that has had a coat of camo paint recently applied to up its value. You may ask, what nut would take a perfectly good helmet in fantastic original condition and significantly alter it ? Answer: someone who wants to up a helmet's value from let's say $1000 USD for a factory SD Heer to $5000 USD for an SD Heer CAMO.

So not just well beat, well worn low $$$ helmets are being altered, but the more expensive better conditioned helmets as well. These folks have not a care for history but only $$$$. The hobby has been flooded with these sorts of people, out to make a buck (or lots of bucks) off of ignorant, novice, idealistic, unreasonable collectors. I suspect certain helmet forums (no names) may be in bed with such people to legitimize these postwar modified helmets.

 

[Hambone]

In my experience, that decal appears authentic. Keep in mind that postwar altered helmets can fit into a very wide range. Some of the better ones are like what we see here; a 100% SD Heer helmet with all original components that has had a coat of camo paint recently applied to up its value. You may ask, what nut would take a perfectly good helmet in fantastic original condition and significantly alter it ? Answer: someone who wants to up a helmet's value from let's say $1000 USD for a factory SD Heer to $5000 USD for an SD Heer CAMO.

So not just well beat, well worn low $$$ helmets are being altered, but the more expensive better conditioned helmets as well. These folks have not a care for history but only $$$$. The hobby has been flooded with these sorts of people, out to make a buck (or lots of bucks) off of ignorant, novice, idealistic, unreasonable collectors. I suspect certain helmet forums (no names) may be in bed with such people to legitimize these postwar modified helmets.

Exactly as the higher end camo fakes are done. This was the case way back in the day. There were a couple prolific "restorers" in the early 90s, even before the internets took off, who had show buyers who would buy lower end original worn helmets and then deliver them wrapped in paper grocery bags in a big box to the restorers and dealers at shows. I saw this. Guys from back then who were plugged in well know it. Many of the internet forum waftards and exspurts "authenticate" fakes with fakes. They don't know what they don't know, at best.

 

[mauser99]

I understand where this is all coming from.. But, we all have our own opinions on certain examples. Until there is absolute proof I will stand by my opinions on this one. If Im ever proved wrong I'll be the first to admit it.
I like everything about this one..

There have been plenty of stinkers posted here but folks that aint one of them....

 

[M45]

Mauser, if you like this one, that is up to you. Of course it is your choice. The absolute proof you speak of would be paint testing to confirm the camo contains no modern compounds not found in pre May 8, 1945 paint.

Since paint testing is not likely to happen anytime soon, we are left with our opinions.

Since prospective buyers of such fine conditioned camos likely do not have the option of paint testing for absolute proof of authenticity, they only have the opinions of their friends or their own gut feelings to determine authenticity. Such opinions and gut feelings actually did work in decades past and they more or less became a staple that collectors relied upon. But we are talking the collecting world of the '60's, '70s's and '80's. It is now stardate 2023. The opinions of friends and our gut feeling could be entirely wrong today.

Those early clumsy attempts at camo recreation stand out like a sore thumb by today's standards. Basic colored paints from hardware stores or children's paint sets really only fooled the most novice of collectors.

But today with computerized paint matching, paint colors and shades true to the period have been professionally reproduced. Now someone can acquire some of this paint and apply it to an original helmet with original decal, rough things up to show that it has been banged around a bit, and viola !!! You have something very much like the above helmet.

 

[M45]

You see Mauser, camo fakers target collectors such as yourself who are awed by appearances; how the camo looks, how it impresses you, how it dazzles you, what fantastic condition it is in. Then naturally your mind begins to wonder about WHERE such a fantastic camo could have originated; Afrika, Italy, Russian Southern Front ??

Once the collector is hooked as per believing in originality, then the question becomes, can I possibly OWN such a fantastic piece of history ? And the answer is usually YES! for a price.

So then, thousands of $$$ are shelled out for an alleged authentic field modified camo helmet without any confirmation of PROOF of authenticity re: forensic paint testing. It is all based on BELIEF.

This is basically what happened with C-SS Sham Pain Ruins SS helmets (don't we ever learn?). Collectors were awed and enamored with the APPEARANCE of the alleged SS helmets, the beautiful insignia, the generally fantastic condition of them.

You will notice that RARELY on these helmet forums do members ask uncomfortable questions about said helmets, such as WHERE did this thing come from ? What is it's ownership HISTORY ? Where is the unquestioned VET provenance ? WHY does sham pain SS insignia appear on high lot numbered helmets ?

You see, I was repeatedly banned from helmet forums for asking such uncomfortable questions.

 

[Tarnmar44]

People get what they want - scammers are very flexible and creative people. The best are always one step ahead of 99% of collectors. they know what the entire mechanism in this industry looks like and the expectations of collectors. Can be adapted to any period and front of World War II+ make a fancy exotic camouflage that, instead of camouflaging, screams out loud ,,I'm here, dear collector!"

 

[mauser99]

Ok, back to this.. You state its your "opinion" which I respect and I have my own. So neither is right nor wrong till the paint is tested.. Lets move on..
During this whole process Im referring to this 134 page thread I brought up points and recommended everyone watching the netflix documentaries on the Art forgeries and wine . Both excellent examples of how a group of experts and collectors get duped by a clever person or persons taking advantage of a market hungry for new blood. Un discovered new masters and wine that typically will never be opened.
It all comes down to BUYER BEWARE two words that as true today as when they were first blurted out way back when..

 

[DaveDavis]

Just remember this, in 100 years even fakes will be real !!!!

When America celebrated the CIVIL WAR centennial in 1960, reproductions of all sorts flooded the market. Today, 63 years later, they are routinely sold as "ORIGINAL"

 

[M45]

This is my understanding of an original snow camo. Notice that it is very different from what is vetted on some helmet forums today. This helmet was whitewashed with a very diluted white paint. The whitewash is easily rubbed off or worn off after the winter months have passed. What remains are remnants of the whitewash.