DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts
- Thread starter Hambone
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M45
Well-known member
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/23225-for-comment-model-1918-ss-double-decal-helmet-posted-for-sale/
Apparently, C-SS is also found on WWI transitional helmets.
Apparently, C-SS is also found on WWI transitional helmets.
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It seems so Peiper, which is IMHO a sad statement about the integrity of SS helmet collecting.
Hambone, I fully agree with you that it is a sad state of affairs in the SS helmet collecting community. I only own one original SS helmet, an M40 ET62 with lot number 900. With the knowledge that the SS helmet community obviously is wanting when it comes to integrity, I think my collection will remain with only one SS helmet. The risk in buying SS helmets has always been high, but it has increased significantly with the Shampain Ruin scandal and the community's lack of motivation to identify how it was actually possible in the first place.
$$$ for "lids"??
Really hard for a die hard gun guy to understand the huge money it looks like some have paid for a helmet that might well be fake. Or a not fake one for that matter. Dunno what I'd do with a helmet if someone gave me one. Sit it on a shelf I guess. You would have to have like minded guys look at the thing for any appreciation of what it is.
Hey! a REAL MP44 can be had starting at around 16K. No fakes of them being lied about to the unsuspecting. No decals painted on, no paint to be read by some machine.
One can actually DO something with one of them, like shoot the hell out of it.
To each his own I guess.
I suppose I just don't get it.
Pete
Really hard for a die hard gun guy to understand the huge money it looks like some have paid for a helmet that might well be fake. Or a not fake one for that matter. Dunno what I'd do with a helmet if someone gave me one. Sit it on a shelf I guess. You would have to have like minded guys look at the thing for any appreciation of what it is.
Hey! a REAL MP44 can be had starting at around 16K. No fakes of them being lied about to the unsuspecting. No decals painted on, no paint to be read by some machine.
One can actually DO something with one of them, like shoot the hell out of it.
To each his own I guess.
I suppose I just don't get it.
Pete
M45
Well-known member
Pete, an addiction to militaria can be thrilling, but it also has its built-in weaknesses. Eyes overriding brain is the principle weakness. Within many of us collectors resides a deep-seated desire to acquire extremely rare militaria. If we become convinced that an object of our affections is real, we will pay through the nose to get it. This is usually a very emotional experience involving all of those endorphins rattling around in our brains giving us euphoric feelings. We are addicted to the chemicals in our brains and everything associated with it; rare militaria.
The Hitler Diaries scandal is a prime example. A publisher was willing to pay $4 million for something that had not even been fully tested for authenticity. The story and all of the details sucked them into it. The story was believed and the Diaries had to be acquired no matter what the price.
Owning an original SS helmet in pristine condition is something dreams are made of. And as long as they are found in print with COA guarantees, have passed the Ray-gun test, have that 5% copper that "real" sham-pain ruins have, have the celluloid composition that is "similar if not the same as original Pocher SS decals", and are exalted on high by SS helmet "experts" and "groupies",
then those good feelings about acquiring such a pristine helmet are reinforced by the above and you plop down the 5K-25K that is being asked.
The Hitler Diaries scandal is a prime example. A publisher was willing to pay $4 million for something that had not even been fully tested for authenticity. The story and all of the details sucked them into it. The story was believed and the Diaries had to be acquired no matter what the price.
Owning an original SS helmet in pristine condition is something dreams are made of. And as long as they are found in print with COA guarantees, have passed the Ray-gun test, have that 5% copper that "real" sham-pain ruins have, have the celluloid composition that is "similar if not the same as original Pocher SS decals", and are exalted on high by SS helmet "experts" and "groupies",
then those good feelings about acquiring such a pristine helmet are reinforced by the above and you plop down the 5K-25K that is being asked.
Well said M45. We are all afflicted to varying degrees of the "BSing ourselves" pathology. That is why open and transparent, uncensored discussion is all the more important. If we are BSing ourselves publicly on a forum, being assisted by those who sold us the coveted trinket (or the seller's buddies), and critical discussion is censored and shouted down, we can end up perpetuating, aiding, and abetting fraud. People rely upon forums for vetting and authentication information. That's why, IMHO, some have been hijacked for mongering, not for true discussion.
M45
Well-known member
Judging by the C-SS threads that have been locked over the last weeks, the hope seems to be that this all just blows over. After all, "it's a learning experience for everyone" and there is no need to close the barn door after the horses have gone, is there?
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My opinions: typical waftard logik. There is no transparency, for a reason, and certainly no open discussion or debate which creates transparency. The "discussions" are rigged to support the party line, which is dealer-centric and toady centric. It's trafficking in high dollar Nazi trinketry and bull$hit, one hand washes the other, and information / spin control. Information and knowledge are $. IMHO, the reason they were so ridiculously (and ignorantly) antagonistic to litigation is because that smokes out chain of custody of these things and there are plenty in the chain of custody. Instead of letting open information clean up the cesspool, it's now been cyber-overfilled and has cyber-flooded the world. Fortunately, WAF is no longer the only game in town, which is rigged in any event.
So now, move along, nothing more to see........
You trust these people to vet things and authentication methods such as "XRFacts - Provenance through Science"?Part of me no longer feels any sympathy for the victims that are sitting on their hands. If they are choosing to order and then eat a $25,000 shite sandwich, and then are cool with sitting around while the waiter brings seconds, its their own fault at this point. They know where the courthouses are, and which people to start with. WAF may encourage people to be stupid and pliable sheep, but these buyers aren't forced to wear the wool....
Strange indeed
I have to agree with Nirvana here. How in the hell does anyone take being victimized in such an egregious manner lying down? Is there no fight in these people? I am probably one who would tilt at windmills myself if I were sure that I was in the right. The facts here seem plain enough: A person or persons manufactured a series of fake SS helmets with a view to defraud collectors of their money. The fact that it was so successful for so long speaks to the lack of true expertise in the community and the mind numbed robotic "me too" attitude of the various fora where real criticism of the big boys and top guns is not allowed. I made the mistake of crossing one of them years back on a minor issue and found that there was no way of effectively defending myself or even stating my case.
The entire TR collecting world is a house of cards at the present time. (Firearms are a bit safer than helmets, & etc.) Looking at what is available on the market it appears that virtually every other German helmet is camo - some in patterns that if used in the field would only draw fire or laughter from an opponent.
This is becoming a rant and I apologize. I feel that anyone who has been defrauded should have the moral courage to stand up, speak out and name names and since that also means admitting that one has been duped, that is a good first step in healing.
Cheers,
Mike
I have to agree with Nirvana here. How in the hell does anyone take being victimized in such an egregious manner lying down? Is there no fight in these people? I am probably one who would tilt at windmills myself if I were sure that I was in the right. The facts here seem plain enough: A person or persons manufactured a series of fake SS helmets with a view to defraud collectors of their money. The fact that it was so successful for so long speaks to the lack of true expertise in the community and the mind numbed robotic "me too" attitude of the various fora where real criticism of the big boys and top guns is not allowed. I made the mistake of crossing one of them years back on a minor issue and found that there was no way of effectively defending myself or even stating my case.
The entire TR collecting world is a house of cards at the present time. (Firearms are a bit safer than helmets, & etc.) Looking at what is available on the market it appears that virtually every other German helmet is camo - some in patterns that if used in the field would only draw fire or laughter from an opponent.
This is becoming a rant and I apologize. I feel that anyone who has been defrauded should have the moral courage to stand up, speak out and name names and since that also means admitting that one has been duped, that is a good first step in healing.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike, I agree with you.
My opinions: trying to save the waftarded from themselves, their mods and Svengali lid gods is a waste of time. However, we certainly can contain it, like the Zika virus. Pinheads are thwarted and kept away from objective and transparent discussion. For the waftarded, it appears more a matter of being the kid with the coolest trinkets and the most praise from the forum, regardless of reality, history, and a vetted knowledge base. You're left with people more invested in popularity contests, racking up thumbs up emoticons, and bull$hitting each other and themselves. The way WAF works is you go along to get along. If you disagree with the mods and lid gods, you'll be attacked and then the waftards will be unleashed upon you. When you defend yourself, you'll be censored and banned. The standard waftard monkey shriek is "hidden agenda!" and "troublemaker!" and "Hambone's agenda!" and my personal favorite "hobby anarchist!"
. Thus, from WAF we get the Champagne Rune hoax and XRFacts, to just name a couple. They shriek and condemn any further investigation of this whole mess, but why? Because IMHO these fake lids have passed through the hands of more than a few and of course, it makes them look ridiculous.You won't find the same BS and waftardation here. That's because everyone has an opportunity to support their argument, we are transparent, there is no censorship, and this is a collector site, not a dealer driven and censored rubber chicken toss. K98k and German rifle collecting is quite healthy and strong as a result. A high post count and a moderator label doesn't get you protected from being questioned or from the requirement of supporting your position. I guess that's the waftard dreaded "Hambone agenda".
Cheers,
HB
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Also Rev. Mike, how many times do you see any of those who shriek, b!tch, and whine about our discussions ever show up here to challenge what we are saying? They know they won't be censored, as we are there. But they know they will have to support their ad hominem with more than ad hominem. Waftardation can only exist where it is protected and encouraged. It's good for business.
I see that on WAF now in addition to ridicule those who speak up on the shampain ruin scandal, some even have started to cast doubt on Doug's study. Of course without explaining what in Doug's study they deem to be not valid.
Being a helmet collector, my online time is mostly spent on GHW2, and I only read threads at WAF. The whole shampain ruin affair has really opened my eyes to the less admirable sides of this hobby. There has always been dishonest dealers selling fake helmets, but this debacle is something quite different as renowned characters are involved.
The sad thing is that it seems they are succeeding in their "damage control". Possibly someone at WAF will soon claim shampain ruins are original again.....
Being a helmet collector, my online time is mostly spent on GHW2, and I only read threads at WAF. The whole shampain ruin affair has really opened my eyes to the less admirable sides of this hobby. There has always been dishonest dealers selling fake helmets, but this debacle is something quite different as renowned characters are involved.
The sad thing is that it seems they are succeeding in their "damage control". Possibly someone at WAF will soon claim shampain ruins are original again.....
The sad thing is that it seems they are succeeding in their "damage control". Possibly someone at WAF will soon claim shampain ruins are original again.....
They are only succeeding with the waftarded. There are those at WAF who know better, and certainly everyone else does. It may in fact only be bull$hitters bull$hitting each other publicly to re-enforce each others' bull$hit in the hopes that people reading it will be impressed and become waftarded, i.e., a WAF bull$hit echo chamber. The non-waftarded still at WAF (easy to spot) know that to stand out too much will get them beaten down. The Shampain Ruin is a dead issue at WAF. One of their gods is at the epicenter and more than a few have their fingerprints on these things. Again, we can't save the profoundly waftarded, but fortunately it can be contained to WAF and there is GWH2, US Militaria Forum, and other sites.