DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[Hambone]

IMHO, it's either intentional hijacking to protect the sale of humpjobs or arrogance and buffoonery, or a mix of both. Everyone knows that if your post count isn't high enough, if you aren't a card carrying waftard, or haven't proven your "worth" by sucking up (going along to get along) to the status quo, you will be attacked, ridiculed, censored, and banned, regardless of the merit and validity of your opinion. In fact, the more meritorious your opinion, the more waftarded they look, the more abuse and censorship you can expect. Those people are gone.

The process is simplistic and has been utilized by totalitarians the world over to establish dystopias. If they can't respond substantively to you, if you make good points, then you are a "troublemaker", "have a hidden agenda" and "how many helmets do YOU have?", and my favorite, "you're a hobby anarchist" Then of course, the thread is locked, or your posts are censored, and/or you are banned. All that is essentially left is a dystopia that will function, and even benefit some, but is it trustworthy if not transparent and controlled by a few people? Who wants to be vilified and insulted trying to save such people from themselves?

I've determined the best that can be done is to contain such idiocy, as we did with XRFacts. They were trying hard to extend it to "firearm blueing (sic)" and other things beyond helmets. That's the danger. They can destroy any integrity and intellect left in SS helmet collecting all they want.

 

[jack944]

What a Thread

I would like to give kudo's to whomever came up with "sham pain".....

Could I add a word >>> Ruins ...ie. Sham pain ruins....

 

[Hambone]

Hicks responds:
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380/

From what I gather from his first response, IMHO:
1) Champagne runes are real, just not the ones DougB analyzed;
2) The guys from Hicks' time are the better authorities, particularly Bob Coleman who says he saw real Champagne rune helmet in the 60s and 70s; and
3) People shouldn't argue, point fingers, and "attack" (presumably these people are the "hobby anarchists" WAFWilli Z refers to), which is what happens on forums when the unwashed little people try to evaluate the Champagne rune or disagree with the exspurts.

 

[Hambone]

Hicks : the Champagne rune is real and XRFacts had fakers "shaking in their shoes" (particularly the Allach porcelain peddlers (that's what Vid the Gunboards moderator sells) until we, the gun boards "whackos," destroyed XRFacts with our discussions, preventing XRFacts from saving the hobby:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380-2/

 

[nirvana]

Christ this is funny. I couldn't make this up. No one would believe that it was true.


Quote by BOB COLEMAN
Do those who doubt the originality of the champagne decal think the helmet I obtained in 1961 was a fake?

Quote by CricketChris1944
Where the pictures?

Quote by BOB COLEMAN
Who the hell took pictures back in the early 1960's? Sorry but that is really a dumb question. Were you collecting back then or even around?

Quote by CricketChris1944
I did not expect a reply like this from you Bob or from any moderator from this forum.
I have enjoy this forum ,but I guess it is time for me to move on.
Chris

Quote by WAgriff
The stated fact that Bob has purchased them Directly from the GI's that brought them home is, in my opinion, proof enough that there are, at the very least, Some genuine champagnes in existence



And to seal it, the signature on Coleman's posts:
LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

 

[mauser99]

So, Kelly has surfaced and entered into discussion. What a joke. One thing that stuck out was.." I have seen 9 to 10 sham pain ruin decals I know are real " So what about the dozens that have your COA attached ? Were there ever questions about those ? Or getting the 200.00 for the coa was enough to put the blinders on ?

Who the hell is Bob Coleman anyway ??? Why is his word the Gospel ???

 

[Hambone]

Nirvana, according to Hicks you are just another "gun boards whacko" "seeing conspiracies". Speaking of which, I think the cat's out the bag on Vid the Gunboard moderator's sudden attack and censorfest over at their Militaria forum re Hicks and XRFacts. Hicks mentioned the importance of XRFacts to "SS Allach" which is the porcelein Vid collects and sells. I'd like to hear about that from Vid or better yet have Hicks come here in a free, open, transparent forum and defend XRFacts and the Champagne rune.

 

[mrfarb]

It's the diaper syndrome, I've seen it in 98k collecting. If a collector was collecting stuff while you were in diapers, your opinion is void. It's a thing, can't wait till I get there. RyanE is close, but I think he was in underoos by the time I started so I have to give him credit. All you other guys coming up, forget about it.

 

[jack944]

Hicks : the Champagne rune is real and XRFacts had fakers "shaking in their shoes" (particularly the Allach porcelain peddlers (that's what Vid the Gunboards moderator sells) until we, the gun boards "whackos," destroyed XRFacts with our discussions, preventing XRFacts from saving the hobby:

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380-2/

Jesus..this shows when your back is to the wall....your sense of reality is your own....WOW...he is afraid of $$$$ settlements against his worthless paper. I collected when a lot of people here were in diapers and I can tell you fakery started in 1945.

 

[Hambone]

Jesus..this shows when your back is to the wall....your sense of reality is your own....WOW...he is afraid of $$$$ settlements against his worthless paper. I collected when I lot of people here were in diapers and I can tell you fakery started in 1945.

Bingo twice. The "response" is not really a response at all but ad hominem and "because I say so, as confirmed by Bob". That worked in the 80s and it evidently still works for some at WAF (i.e., the waftarded) and some at that site. That does not work with reasonable, thinking, objective adults. That's why these people won't be found here making their cases.

I have no reason to believe that Bob Coleman is anything other than a good guy, and for that matter, Hicks. However, their arguments are not going to get much traction with people like us, which is why Hicks must attack us personally with comments like "whackos at the gun boards forums".

 

[Warrior1354]

Fakery started as soon as Berlin fell. Where there was money too be made someone got involved. Remember what I said before about the SA daggers how fake copy's of those were pouring out of Spain after the war was over. And too say it was brought back does not always mean its real either. I know a guy who's dad brought home a SA dagger in 1946 and he tried too sale it many years later. It was a fake his dad got screwed in 1946. Too me the only why too tell if a SS helmet is real anymore is unless the GI took it off a dead SS soldier or captured it from him and has some sort proof too prove it. But how much of this can be made up into a story anymore.

 

[M45]

Christ this is funny. I couldn't make this up. No one would believe that it was true.


Quote by BOB COLEMAN
Do those who doubt the originality of the champagne decal think the helmet I obtained in 1961 was a fake?

Quote by CricketChris1944
Where the pictures?

Quote by BOB COLEMAN
Who the hell took pictures back in the early 1960's? Sorry but that is really a dumb question. Were you collecting back then or even around?

Quote by CricketChris1944
I did not expect a reply like this from you Bob or from any moderator from this forum.
I have enjoy this forum ,but I guess it is time for me to move on.
Chris

Quote by WAgriff
The stated fact that Bob has purchased them Directly from the GI's that brought them home is, in my opinion, proof enough that there are, at the very least, Some genuine champagnes in existence



And to seal it, the signature on Coleman's posts:
LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

I believe that Bob was the one who gave me the 'coup de grace' on WRF after wearing out my welcome with C-SS discussion.
What was I doing in 1961 while Bob was procuring "original" sham-pain ruins from vets? I was a gleam in someone's eye. So what? This is 2016 not 1961, and those youngsters have learned a thing or two about SS helmets from lot# research. As I've said before, vet association can be congered up like an evil spirit. How about pay a real vet with paperwork to walk into a show with a bogus SS helmet in hand with a nice story about picking it up on a European battlefield? The helmet actually bounces off of the table; it is sold as soon as it hits the table and the vet gets his cut.

It all goes back to; "Trust us. We saw "originals" long ago and we know they are real".

 

[jack944]

vets

Several years ago I was helping a friend who was buying a veteran's
collection that he kept in his footlocker. I opened it up and saw a few things that were obviously fake..I sorted things out in 3 piles
.one I thought good...one I wasn't sure of (badges)...and one of fakes. I sent pics of stuff I wasn't sure of to friends who were knowledgeable.

I asked him if he brought all of this back himself. He said he added to it through the years via flea markets, gun shows, etc.

Long story short almost all of the stuff he added was fake (Collector Armory type stuff).

Maybe Bob Coleman saw an age toned decal that he thought was sham pain ruin...Eyewitness accounts are to be part but not the sole reason for proof. Let's see if any of the "good pain" decals show up....anyone want to place a bet?

 

[Hambone]

Maybe Bob Coleman saw an age toned decal that he thought was sham pain ruin...Eyewitness accounts are to be part but not the sole reason for proof. Let's see if any of the "good pain" decals show up....anyone want to place a bet?

I wish I had $5 for every "vet" I saw with fake stuff. By 1945 there were over 8 million men in the Army alone. Those guys bought stuff post war and the vast majority knew zip about what was fake and what was real. These guys sold stuff and their family members sold stuff. SS was faked in 1945. Enough said.

What has showed up is bull$hit and ad hominem, along with "because I say so that's why". Of course, anyone who disagrees is a "whacko" because shampain runes are real because they are in his book and Bob Coleman says he saw one in 1961. Where's the pic of this original shampain rune?

The most obvious surreal, bizarro aspect of Hicks' response: if the Champagne rune lids he sold and issued COAs for are real, wouldn't he have a picture of one of those? They are on his COAs aren't they? If he isn't providing pictures of the Champagne rune lids he sold and/or blessed as authentic to refute DougB's research, then what does that say?

 

[M45]

Maybe Bob Coleman saw an age toned decal that he thought was sham pain ruin...Eyewitness accounts are to be part but not the sole reason for proof. Let's see if any of the "good pain" decals show up....anyone want to place a bet?

Good point above and also by GONZO51; the idea that the original helmet used as a model for the sham-pains had a toned ET SS decal, as seen on this authentic ET M35 DD SS on Ken N.'s website.

A helmet very much like this original DD SS with age toned decal could also have been the "champagne SS" that Bob saw in 1961. In other words, Bob is likely confusing authentic, aged toned ET SS decals with spray painted modern art.


Some sham-pain ruins for comparison (last 4 photos). Note thick borders, inconsistent borders, and improper shield breaks at the sides. Also, these C-SS often appear where they have no business being, such as hkp M42s and Quist M40s.

 

[mauser99]

The toned ET is actually a bit darker than the sham-pain ruins. So, I could surely see where someone might confuse the two. According to what I read the sham-pain was an attempt to copy the ET pattern not create a new variant. I guess we will never know. Just flipping through those photos you can see the major inconsistency in the sham-painer's I know that was always a major concern for non-believers.

 

[Hambone]

Straight away there is an obvious problem with the one in this thread:
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380/

There seems to me to be an effort to discourage any investigation of this, the biggest fraud in helmet collecting. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
― Edmund Burke

It's got overspray and painting glob defect visible with the naked eye. It's also got the artiste's single tool scratch across the side of the shield. Yet it doesn't seem too many are interested in finding out who is involved.

 

[nirvana]

If Hicks issued a COA on a helmet, it should be real, per his reasoning. He wouldn't issue COAs on fake helmets, right?

If Hicks issued a COA for a champagne rune SS helmet, and he only issues COAs for real helments, it should be a real champagne rune helmet. Right? A real helmet, a real decal.

So, if Hicks wanted to pull up a real champagne rune helmet to prove his case, he should be able to contact anyone with one of this COA's. They have a real helmet, per his analysis and reputation.

So do it. Show us one of these real helmets, show it for public review. FULL STOP

Until then, its just hot air.

 

[Hambone]

IMHO, there is a reason he has never appeared here to support XRFacts, and why he won't appear in a less than supportive venue to contest DougB's findings. It's the WAFtard retort: anyone disagreeing is a "whacko" or a "hobby anarchist" or a "troublemaker" or has a "hidden agenda". None of this is responsive, but is a weak, waftarded ad hominem attempt to steer feeble minded hobby lemmings away from substantive interrogatories and discussion. Even if we assume, arguendo, that all of those things are true, how are such things responsive to the allegations that Champagne runes are airbrushed fakes and XRFacts "authenticated" an airbrushed fake as having the same "code" or "identical elemental signature" as an original SS decal but "with 5% copper"?

 

[Peter U]

Bob Coleman saw an authentic shampain ss helmet in 1961, that he knows for sure.
It wasn't 1960 or 1962.
Talking about being exact!
I'am collecting since the early 90's and I can't even remember when I saw my first Waffen SS Soldbuch, this most likely says enough about me and my memory.