DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[Warrior1354]

Why is that even being brought up. They say its real and that is that. Thats the end of it their right were always wrong end of story. Plus how can you argue when they have a nice fancy type up piece of paper to say it is real. Disagree with them and they will censer you, argue with them and they will ban you, keep saying false things about their nice real SS helmets and they might sue you. Just send them money and they take care you. You have their word of honor on it.

Goes back too an old quote my grandfather used too tell me when I was younger "I may not always be right but I am never wrong."

Plus I'm still thinking how much crap is going too be talked about these helmets at the SOS show coming up in just a few weeks. I think it could get ugly. And is there a chance that one of these helmets buyers that got burned alot of money might stop buy and visit these guys and ask for their money back. Because chances are they are going to be there. And I don't think they will say pretty please refund me either.

 

[Hambone]

On the 7th photo down, after clicking to enlarge, is that overspray to the left of the "decal" ?

Good grief, more of a glob of paint that gleeked over with stencil error as Nirvana said. None of these SS lid collectors ever looked at these under a loop, or heaven forbid post a hi-rez pic on WAF and try to discuss it? Oh wait......

 

[Hambone]

Top left corner. Like a stencil error?

Good grief! No one looked at one of these decals with a magnifying glass or posted one in hi-rez for discussion? WAF helmet forum has been around for over a decade and this has never been addressed? Attempted once by ZAM in 2012, who was thrashed for it. How is this explained? This lid is exactly why a database tracking these has merit. When did it originate? Who sold it? How could anyone write a COA on something like this?

First, the telltale artificial scratch / tool mark on the left of the shield seems to be almost a "signature" of the humper. The artificial scratches re evidence. More obvious is the overspray and paint smudge from the stencil removal, as Nirvana noted. This is not heavy lifting to see this.

M42 SD CKL 5345 / Champagne
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380/

 

[Peter U]

If they believed this was authentic, then what about all those camo helmets?
The champagne rune was done by an amateur with an air brush too and that was declared Original for decade so what if the type of fellow that can make fake Vermeer paintings or Rembrands, a professional paint restorer for example, would make his own version of over painted helmets, would the wafperts be able to detect those?

 

[mauser99]

Good grief! No one looked at one of these decals with a magnifying glass or posted one in hi-rez for discussion? WAF helmet forum has been around for over a decade and this has never been addressed? Attempted once by ZAM in 2012, who was thrashed for it. How is this explained? This lid is exactly why a database tracking these has merit. When did it originate? Who sold it? How could anyone write a COA on something like this?

First, the telltale artificial scratch / tool mark on the left of the shield seems to be almost a "signature" of the humper. The artificial scratches re evidence. More obvious is the overspray and paint smudge from the stencil removal, as Nirvana noted. This is not heavy lifting to see this.

M42 SD CKL 5345 / Champagne
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380/

Going back now and looking at these examples makes it easier to say how could they/we be fooled ? No" REAL" German decal is perfect in its construction and it's often the print "defects" I look for when judging a decal to de real or not. The real reason I would have or did never own one was the price first. Then the back room whisper's that they were always considered controversial and suspect. That was enough for me. Others not so much I guess. The m42 hkp randy sold was much more convincing than this ckl posted. Also the fact that they don't all look the same should have caused pause and I think it did in certain circles. Doug did a great thread that's pinned on GHW about high end fake Poacher decals as well that were printed. It wasn't till 200x magnification that you could see the saw edge print liner on the runes. He busted that one up as well but, not much was said and the source wasn't revealed or known.

 

[Hambone]

Yes but real German decals don't have visible overspray and globs of paint that do that. Even Heer and Luft decals don't and they are much more intricate than an SS. This isn't hindsight 20/20, but a real "good grief" moment. It's shocking almost. I never took the time to care because I knew better than to get involved and didn't have the money to do so when I started. But that justified skepticism of anything SS generally, and these "Champagne runes" in particular should have revealed this long ago.

Put another way, if there was a controversial anomaly in K98k collecting like this, we would have started a topic on it over 10 years ago and created a database of Champagne run helmets along with detailed pictures of the "decals" and had an open discussion. Why was this never done at WAF? Now they seem to be doing this:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843688&page=3

Again, this isn't heavy lifting. There are clearly guys with technical expertise in the field of spray paint / airbrush / decals. For us, this:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578059
would have been this:
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?893-XRFacts-Forums-and-Censorship

It took one guy, DougB, to essentially do this, and he had to privately. Again, hats off to DougB.

 

[Peter U]

I have been collecting since the early '90's and 3R militaria is a minefield in this hobby and of that minefield the Waffen SS section is the worst.
Faking Waffen SS is financially rewarding, you can turn an average $350 helmet in to $8000 "one looker" with little effort, this fakery has perfect profit margins for the average criminal and holds no risk at all, because when you are caught you don't even have to give a refund
And if all this isn't bad enough already, the big forum on this topic has been censoring information for many years now, Willi Z, Perry Floid and other wafperts can pat themselves on the back for aiding the helmet fakers!

 

[mauser99]

Yes but real German decals don't have visible overspray and globs of paint that do that. Even Heer and Luft decals don't and they are much more intricate than an SS. This isn't hindsight 20/20, but a real "good grief" moment. It's shocking almost. I never took the time to care because I knew better than to get involved and didn't have the money to do so when I started. But that skepticism of SS should have revealed this long ago.

I just meant its easy to go back and point and say how fake they look.. Some worse than others. ZAM was right the rest were wrong I think that point has been well established.

Next, is to get the Bob Colemans of the world whoever the hell he is and why his statements mater to stop recalling when they saw one in 1962. Maybe the guy behind the grassy knoll was holding it ???

 

[Hambone]

I just meant its easy to go back and point and say how fake they look.. Some worse than others. ZAM was right the rest were wrong I think that point has been well established.

The next set is to get the Bob Colemans of the world whoever the hell he is and why his statements mater to stop recalling when they saw on in 1962. Maybe the guy behind the grassy knoll was holding it ???

I find the ZAM thread klassik WAF, with the expected result. Without substantive, transparent, and open discussion were differing opinions are allowed not much is resolved or discovered other than what a few people running the forum want resolved or discovered. You're right, why would anyone think that what someone says he saw in 1962 would prove much.

As for the "history" of these shampain rune helmets, they have obviously been around awhile. I don't think there were a couple made in the 70s and that was it. That is precisely why a database with as much info on each helmet is important. I believe these were humped from the 70s - 90s, maybe even later. There's a trail to the origin(s) of these and it is incredible to me that the response is "oh well, it's just like investing in the stock market" and "don't trust others' opinions only your own" and "these were around 40 years ago, can't track them, no need for a database".

 

[M45]

Good grief! No one looked at one of these decals with a magnifying glass or posted one in hi-rez for discussion? WAF helmet forum has been around for over a decade and this has never been addressed? Attempted once by ZAM in 2012, who was thrashed for it. How is this explained? This lid is exactly why a database tracking these has merit. When did it originate? Who sold it? How could anyone write a COA on something like this?

First, the telltale artificial scratch / tool mark on the left of the shield seems to be almost a "signature" of the humper. The artificial scratches re evidence. More obvious is the overspray and paint smudge from the stencil removal, as Nirvana noted. This is not heavy lifting to see this.

M42 SD CKL 5345 / Champagne
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/m42-sd-ckl-5345-champagne-552380/

While there were always those 'back room' doubts about the authenticity of C-SS, I'm convinced that lot number research was the key that busted this thing wide open. The 'experts' looking at these under high magnification for years (2004-2015 est.) only revealed a 'fingerprint' (we were never told exactly what that was) in addition to a strong similarity to original Pocher-SS decals. We have seen this supposed 'similarity' discussed in print and on forums by SS helmet 'experts'. This bogus similarity in construction was a major promotional point intended to convince collectors of authenticity. (Of course, XRFacts was related to this)

Similar to an illegal drug pipeline, there were creators/producers, couriers and purveyors of bogus vet stories, dealers, experts/promoters, and the SS helmet 'groupies' or those who hang around forums never wasting an opportunity to exalt the glories of C-SS, some of whom have since admitted that privately they never believed in the sham-pain ruin.

 

[mauser99]

Similar to an illegal drug pipeline, there were creators/producers, couriers and purveyors of bogus vet stories, dealers, experts/promoters, and the SS helmet 'groupies' or those who hang around forums never wasting an opportunity to exalt the glories of C-SS, some of whom have since admitted that privately they never believed in the sham-pain ruin.[/QUOTE]

I love this comparison. As with the war on drugs the Czars are almost always unseen and never known or prosecuted. Traffickers and the dealers more often take the fall. As long as the customer "end user" kicks drugs or believes the sham-pain-ruin real there will always be a demand. Thankfully SS lids collectors are a minuscule amount of the population VS drug users so I think the task at hand is a bit smaller. Going forward every owner and holder of a sham-pain ruin helmet is effectively screwed. But, there will always be the closet collector non-internet user that will be burned or drug user.... As Nancy Reagan said JUST SAY NO to drugs and SHam-Pain ruin lids...

 

[nirvana]

Collecting 3R stuff is a lot easier if you just presume that everything you touch is fake. If its an SS item, you can know for sure that its a fake. If after intense review you conclude that its not fake, then maybe its worth buying. I would never ever ever wait for an item to be "proved wrong." Its fake unless it proves itself good, no matter what the certificate of authenticity says...

 

[M45]

Collecting 3R stuff is a lot easier if you just presume that everything you touch is fake. If its an SS item, you can know for sure that its a fake. If after intense review you conclude that its not fake, then maybe its worth buying. I would never ever ever wait for an item to be "proved wrong." Its fake unless it proves itself good, no matter what the certificate of authenticity says...

I was told by a dealer in Reno that up to 85% of all militaria at shows has either been altered in some way to increase its value or is outright fake. This was 10 years ago.

The problem is that so much militaria is fake/altered and the fact that we can't all be experts in every field that we want to collect in.

If I wanted to start collecting German medals/badges for instance, in the early days I could just start buying with the assurance that everything was 100% good. But as you know, today is very different from the past. Today I would be forced to begin a years long course of study (with textbooks) to determine the finer details of each type of badge I wanted to collect. Only after I had acquired expert status (knowing more than the average collector) then would I feel a bit of confidence to begin buying. But even experts get fooled, so there would still be no guarantee of not buying fakes. (I understand that some of these re-pop badges are being struck with the original dies)

The average collector does not have the time/will/discipline/desire to get a college degree for each field of German militaria collecting, they just want to begin buying in the fields that interest them. (And that's the way it used to be)

I see two possibilities:

1. Collecting begins to hemorrhage vast numbers of collectors sore from being repeatedly burned, their numbers not being replaced due to word of mouth.
2. Collectors ban together to form 'strong points' or groups/forums dedicated to individual disciplines. These groups have read, studied, and know their fields well and can help others. To a limited degree this is being done, but it needs to increase dramatically.


But when numerous 'experts' have for years (over a decade?) repeatedly promoted a certain SS insignia (via XRFacts, high magnification, in print, vet association, COAs, on forums, berating naysayers, etc...) and have found to have been wrong this entire time, well that's like giving poison to a sick person.

 

[mdarnell19]

I was told by a dealer in Reno that up to 85% of all militaria at shows has either been altered in some way to increase its value or is outright fake. This was 10 years ago.

The problem is that so much militaria is fake/altered and the fact that we can't all be experts in every field that we want to collect in.

If I wanted to start collecting German medals/badges for instance, in the early days I could just start buying with the assurance that everything was 100% good. But as you know, today is very different from the past. Today I would be forced to begin a years long course of study (with textbooks) to determine the finer details of each type of badge I wanted to collect. Only after I had acquired expert status (knowing more than the average collector) then would I feel a bit of confidence to begin buying. But even experts get fooled, so there would still be no guarantee of not buying fakes. (I understand that some of these re-pop badges are being struck with the original dies)

The average collector does not have the time/will/discipline/desire to get a college degree for each field of German militaria collecting, they just want to begin buying in the fields that interest them. (And that's the way it used to be)

I see two possibilities:

1. Collecting begins to hemorrhage vast numbers of collectors sore from being repeatedly burned, their numbers not being replaced due to word of mouth.
2. Collectors ban together to form 'strong points' or groups/forums dedicated to individual disciplines. These groups have read, studied, and know their fields well and can help others. To a limited degree this is being done, but it needs to increase dramatically.


But when numerous 'experts' have for years (over a decade?) repeatedly promoted a certain SS insignia (via XRFacts, high magnification, in print, vet association, COAs, on forums, berating naysayers, etc...) and have found to have been wrong this entire time, well that's like giving poison to a sick person.

Very well said. I agree.

 

[mauser99]

The fake metals and badges makes the sham-pain ruin thang look like child's play. The S&L knights cross debacle a few years back played out in a similar fashion.
Fake badges were made the day the war ended. A field I would never walk into. WAF is mostly a badge forum hence the name. Where they have faltered in the helmet game they have helped 10 fold in the badge and metal department IMHO.

 

[Hambone]

I was told by a dealer in Reno that up to 85% of all militaria at shows has either been altered in some way to increase its value or is outright fake. This was 10 years ago.

The problem is that so much militaria is fake/altered and the fact that we can't all be experts in every field that we want to collect in..

Well said. It's why I haven't been to a big show in about 15 years. The only times I really have made mistakes is when I got out of my field. I always stayed with K98ks / rifles, helmets, and some field gear, etc. What makes the problem worse is having the prime source of information, the internet forum, controlled and censored by a few people or a small group of people. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I don't need a "moderator" deleting and censoring as they see fit to "protect" me from "incivility". I'd rather see all sides and reach my own conclusions. Making matters worse is when you have people with a financial interest in the information controlling it.

 

[M45]

The fake metals and badges makes the sham-pain ruin thang look like child's play. The S&L knights cross debacle a few years back played out in a similar fashion.
Fake badges were made the day the war ended. A field I would never walk into. WAF is mostly a badge forum hence the name. Where they have faltered in the helmet game they have helped 10 fold in the badge and metal department IMHO.

Sounds like a minefield to me.

http://wcstumpmilitaria.blogspot.co...ul-meybauer-of.html?showComment=1329837125549

"There have been fakes of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross 1939 since the end of the Second World War. However, the average collector can reduce the risk factor quite considerably by doing some research and familiarising himself with the die characteristics of known originals. The task is rendered all the less daunting if you bear in mind that the Präsidialkanzlei authorised just seven firms to supply the Knight's Cross during the War. The firms in question were Godet of Berlin, C E Juncker of Berlin, Deschler & Sohn of Munich, Klein & Quenzer of Oberstein, Otto Schickle of Pforzheim, C F Zimmermann of Pforzheim and Steinhauer & Lück of Lüdenscheid.

Unfortunately, the dies of the Steinhauer & Lück and Klein & Quenzer crosses are known to have been used to reproduce 1939 pattern Knight's Crosses after the Second World War, which explains not only the mint Klein & Quenzer KCs introduced to the marketplace by various dealers a few years ago but also the "flawed die" 1939 pattern Steinhauer & Lück KCs. Many experienced collectors say that the only safe Steinhauer & Lück Knight's Crosses are the completely unflawed crosses bearing large or small '800' silver hallmarks, denoting them as award pieces supplied to the Präsidialkanzlei. As the noted specialist Andrew D Biggers once remarked in an article on the Iron Cross, "Steinhauer und Leuck, an original manufacturer of both Official Nazi Knights Crosses as well as 1957 replacement Knight's Crosses have been known to knock off a few war time pattern crosses (with Swastikas) and sell them out to collectors and dealers. The early ones are quite good but many of the ones being made lately are not well put together and often carry a 925 silver content number stamped (often anywhere) on the reverse of the frame. They can fool the uninitiated! One last word on the Steinhauer und Leuck war time dies: It seem that these dies became damaged at some point and have been producing frames with a hairline defect along the top of the beading of the frame. This flaw is able to be seen with the naked eye and is very obvious with a 10 power jeweler's loop. If you see this feature on a cross you are thinking about buying, don't waste your money; it is a fake."

 

[mauser99]

There were also crosses coming out of Austria in the 90's I think that were perfect reproductions. Bill Shea got burned along with a lot Of others I'm sure.
I had an opportunity to buy one at the REPRO price. I did not buy one. I know he refunded all those he sold. I really don't know all the details of that debacle but, I heard whispers about it..

 

[Hambone]

There were also crosses coming out of Austria in the 90's I think that were perfect reproductions. Bill Shea got burned along with a lot Of others I'm sure.
I had an opportunity to buy one at the REPRO price. I did not buy one. I know he refunded all those he sold. I really don't know all the details of that debacle but, I heard whispers about it..

I'm terrified of badges and decorations. I've been burned, probably more than I know. Heck, I got burned on a general assault badge back in the late 80s that looked great. If he handed it to me today I'd say it's a no brainer correct badge. It ain't. I have high regard for Bill Shea. He's old school. He honors his guarantees from what I've seen and heard. At a certain point we are assessed responsibility for knowing what we are buying.

I am not trying to "save the hobby" or on a constant anti-huckster crusade. My whole issue with WAF today is as it was in 2005: the information is not transparent or vetted by transparency. Some opinions are censored and shut down, some are not. That's not right. We don't know what we don't see, consequently, for example, the way it was left in 2012 you are troublemaking moron with an agenda if you say a Champagne rune is airbrushed. In 2010 and 2012 you were a troublemaker with a hidden anti-WAF agenda for challenging XRFacts' claims. Recently, you were a troublemaking "hobby anarchist" with a hidden agenda if you challenged their legal advise and methods of handling the biggest fail and hoax in recent helmet history. This pattern is not helpful to the collecting community.

 

[M45]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=842946&page=4

They seem to be really thinking this one through, whether it was possible that C-SS was airbrushed on wartime. They might be trying to find the "real" sham-pains that certain mods had seen in the '60s. (Remember, we never see a photo of this helmet nor other SS helmets with 1944 dates that would supposedly prove that factories were applying SS decals into 1944)

(I was a kid during the '60s and what I remember was, the Vietnam War on TV night after night, fluorescent posters illuminated with black lights, music by Led Zeppelin and Jimmy Hendrix, LSD, weed etc... hippies, beads, lots of peace signs and Indians crying about pollution. There was a heck of a lot of weird sh!t, but I do not recall seeing any C-SS insignia.)

I've asked this question several times on a few differen threads. I'll try one more time. There is NO way to distinguish paint from a decal using a loupe? I keep seeing people say that these CH Runes are identifiable with the naked eye. Yet for 40 years they fooled almost everybody.

Did the newer digital magnification technology lead to their downfall? Or, like with a loupe, is paint indistinguishable from a decal?

I read Doug's expose. Just don't recall if he touched on why these fooled people for so long.

You know Big Schuss, you are starting to ask some really uncomfortable questions. The answers could be very embarrassing to some.



I guess if you are told its real by experts and dealers then you automatically assume it is real and of course these were selling pre forum days . Rob

Yes Rob, the experts and dealers were looking at C-SS under magnification for years and told us it was real. How could they not have distinguished a painted surface from a decal ? And even more importantly, how could they have thought that C-SS had basically the same composition as an authentic Pocher-SS decal ?

Now the buck must stop with the experts. They cannot say that they were believing someone else, or blame it all on "single-source authentication".

They were the ones promoting these as authentic, in part with the bogus "similarity in construction with Pocher-SS" claim.