Third Party Press

Xmas ornaments from Hitler's tree

I don't know how chewing gum is made but I've been working that shite for a long time. I know that they don't have individuals blowing these out by hand, individually. That's because my grandparents had boxes full of the damn things from the dime store for cheap. Santa, elves, reindeer, gingerbread houses, all kinds of things. If they were expensive we wouldn't have been putting firecrackers in them and blowing up Santa on the driveway in a million tiny thin colored glass pieces while my grandfather laughed and said "y'all will need to clean that up!" Those that you posted are made in a cheap factory process. If they were expensive and individually made I doubt they would be painted in such a crude fashion.

There is no hypocrisy here. We ask for photographic proof because these are highly controversial, as in treated as a joke by many, sold by Walter at The Max. The evidence against their legitimacy is far more compelling than the evidence in favor of legitimacy. These are sold by Walter and generally gooned in videos. We have plenty pics of Xmas decorations in Nazi Germany, just none of these, nothing close. The kiss of death for the "museum" and "news" story authenticating them was that blue zombie Hitler head, which Walter has hanging all over his displays and which even his podnuh doing the interview smirks and goons.

So, applying the presumption that such things are fake until they prove themselves legit, what proof do we have that they are legit?
You are comparing 60s-70s USA mass production to 20s-30s old-world style German production. As we saw on the clip, this factory is still producing items old-world style; hand blown, hand painted, one at a time. No two look exactly alike. This type of craftsmanship is what you are seeing in the hand painting.

Possibly from a special order for some high uppity-ups.

Germans seeing the approach of the Allies maybe started to see the stark contradiction of a 'Nazi xmas' and feared a backlash, so made sure certain items disappeared. The attic hiding place seems appropriate.
 
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We don't know the date the M45 baubles were manufactured. They could've been produced prior to the law, or made by that 10% that never gets the word.
 
We don't know the date the M45 baubles were manufactured. They could've been produced prior to the law, or made by that 10% that never gets the word.
Exactly, but they just as well could have been made after May 1945 can't they?
And what are the odds of them being post-war compared to the most likely limited numbers that were made for Christmas 1932?


The German Political Police made sure that this 10% got the word. They published a last warning in the newspaper and twenty days later no more excuses, ifs or buts.
Thus after September 1933, if your Swastika product or image wasn't allowed by the NSDAP you faced the consquences of the law.
It is safe to say that the Swastika's on the ones M45 showed aren't confirm to the quality standard of the NSDAP.
Perhaps one thing those Nazi clowns did right, they had a quality control program so that the collectors have a solid baseline to evaluate their objects.
 
Exactly, but they just as well could have been made after May 1945 can't they?
And what are the odds of them being post-war compared to the most likely limited numbers that were made for Christmas 1932?



The German Political Police made sure that this 10% got the word. They published a last warning in the newspaper and twenty days later no more excuses, ifs or buts.
Thus after September 1933, if your Swastika product or image wasn't allowed by the NSDAP you faced the consquences of the law.
It is safe to say that the Swastika's on the ones M45 showed aren't confirm to the quality standard of the NSDAP.
Perhaps one thing those Nazi clowns did right, they had a quality control program so that the collectors have a solid baseline to evaluate their objects.
These were likely produced by skilled craftsmen and women at a factory equipped for their manufacture, not in some back alley garage (kitsch).
I will agree that they probably needed special permission to produce them during the TR era (special order).
The swaz was outlawed after the war, so an established factory still producing these after the war and contradictory to the law seems unlikely. Why would they risk their business ?

Some back-alley outfit slapping together swaz-bedecked souvenirs for Allied troops postwar ? Certainly possible. But made by an established ornament factory with everything to lose ? IMO not a chance.
 
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Exactly, but they just as well could have been made after May 1945 can't they?
And what are the odds of them being post-war compared to the most likely limited numbers that were made for Christmas 1932?


The German Political Police made sure that this 10% got the word. They published a last warning in the newspaper and twenty days later no more excuses, ifs or buts.
Thus after September 1933, if your Swastika product or image wasn't allowed by the NSDAP you faced the consquences of the law.
It is safe to say that the Swastika's on the ones M45 showed aren't confirm to the quality standard of the NSDAP.
Perhaps one thing those Nazi clowns did right, they had a quality control program so that the collectors have a solid baseline to evaluate their objects.
The known fakes are not in question. Militaria dealers got to sell something. Based on the photos, and the date M45 claims he acquired the baubles, I think there's a possibility they are legit (pre-May 1945). If these were faked in the 60s or 70s, then those are good quality fakes. M45 needs more information to support his claim that these baubles are legit. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they were made in the 30s in America for the American NAZI party.
 
Demanding period photographic evidence/documentation for rare Third Reich militaria/memorabilia/regalia to be accepted as genuine is like asking for the Moon. It would be VERY unlikely to find such things on the spur of the moment with no prior research.

And IF such evidence exists in print, it could take years to find it even with a concerted effort.

If such evidence is NOT in print (in archives, in a drawer somewhere, for example) it could take decades to find it.

What I find a bit unfair is that only certain people are asked to produce such evidence. This is in contrast to EVERYONE who posts items being asked to produce period evidence to conclusively prove that their items "exist".
This is a tough forum. You do need more information from research. I think you can do it if you apply your skills.
 

An article in German how the Anti Nazi-Kitsch law and the illegal use of NSDAP related symbols was enforced.
It wasn't a laughing matter, entrepreneurs that thought the law didn't apply to them and thought they could continue with business as usual were wrong, in August 1933 the political police issued a last warning and strictly enforced the law from September 1933 onwards.
From then onwards the Swastika Christmas bauble fun was over!


German is my second language, and I think my reading and interpretation of this article and these laws is a little different than yours.
 
When I first saw these items, "mercury glass" was something that immediatly came to mind.

I collect antique kerosene lamps, and with some of these, the inside of the base (not the font where the fuel was placed or inside the glass chimney) is "silvered" with mercury. Depending on the age, quality of the silvering, how the lamp has been stored and cared for, this silvering can hold up fairly well or deteriorate.

Mercury was also used in gold plating items - it was one of the best ways of applying a smooth uniform layer of gold over the surface of an object, such as jewelry.

The problem is, of course, that mercury is highly toxic, particularly in the heat processes used for this "silvering" and gold plating. The mercury is turned into a vapor and driven off to leave the gold behind, or turned into a vapor to cover the glass item with a fine coat of the red powder mercury turns into when heated, then heated again to turn it back into a coating of silver colored mercury.

Basically, due to the lack of filtration and recovery systems way back when, anyone who worked around mercury ended up being poisoned by it and dying a horrible death. The old master goldsmiths who were best at this mercury plating all died from it, and their experience and knowledge was lost.

This is also why many of the famous "lost gold mines" of the Old West became lost - people would find rich deposits of placer gold in sand/gravel/soil, use mercury to trap and extract the gold (high content gold ore in rock would be pulverised with sledge hammers or a primitive chain and rock "arrastra" grinding mill), then the gold/mercury amalgam would be packed into potatoe skins and placed in the glowing coals of a fire. The heat would vaporize the mercury, leaving a solid egg-shaped lump of gold. Of course, all these "Miner '49er" types would stand around in a circle going "Is it gold yet?" waiting to recover their little ingots, and would be poisoned by the mercury. Sometimes one would survive long enough to make it back to the nearest thing that passed for civilization with a saddle bag full of these gold lumps, give a vague description or draw a sketchy map, then die.

So what I am wondering here is, when the use of mercury for silvering decorative glassware like lamp pedestals and Christmas ornaments was discontinued or went out of general use in Germany, and if there is any non-destructive way to determine if the silvering in an object uses mercury - (not tarot cards, a lava lamp, and a double-barrle rectal thermometer, that only works on German helmet paint)

For instance, if the use of mercury was discontinued or forbidden in 1933 (I'm just using this date as an example, not attaching any real significance to it here and now), objects containing mercury silvering could be reasonably dated to that period and maybe a couple years afterward as existing supplies were used up.

Same with the manganese that made glass clear, but absorbed UV rays fron the sun and later turned purple. Most of the manganese came from Germany, and the supply was cut off in WW1 in 1914, due to both the British blockade of German shipping and the German's own embargo on selling it because they needed it for their aircraft engines. There was also limited manganese mining in the U.S. that continued to be used in glass up to the early 1920's and earlier manganese glass items were sometimes used for years after 1914, but with the cut-off of cheap and plentiful manganese from Germany, other processes for making glass clear were developed. So when you find an old homestead, mining, etc. site out in the desert, the presence of sun purpled glass fragments is helpful in dating the site. Lots of purple glass means generally a 1914 or earlier used site, lower quantities or the absence of it points to a later date.
 
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The known fakes are not in question. Militaria dealers got to sell something. Based on the photos, and the date M45 claims he acquired the baubles, I think there's a possibility they are legit (pre-May 1945). If these were faked in the 60s or 70s, then those are good quality fakes. M45 needs more information to support his claim that these baubles are legit. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they were made in the 30s in America for the American NAZI party.


Actually, the German-American Bund was the pro-Hitler association of Germans and ethnic Germans in this country before WW2. The American Nazi Party was a post-war organization created by Commander George Lincoln Rockwell in the late 1950s-early 1960's period.

While there would be no connection of these to the Rockwell ANP, it is not inconceivable that items like this could have been made, possibly in Germany, for, or at least marketed to, American fans of Hitler and National Socialism before WW2. A lot of stuff - including beer mugs - was made in Germany for export to the American market, especially the ethnic German market, which comprised a good part of the population at one time.

Not likely, perhaps, but not impossible either.
 
From my early days of collecting, I had left these at my mom's house decades ago. She was deep cleaning the house, "do you want these or should I get rid of them?" :)

I got these direct from a Vet at a local swap meet in about 1977. He said he was rummaging through a damaged house and found these in the attic. The cigar box is the same one he had them in.

The above is the sum total of support for the legitimacy of these "xmas ornaments from hilters (sic) tree". Has anyone provided anything more than this? All I've seen is primarily an asstalk snowball getting bigger as more bullshit is packed and rolled into a bigger ball of bullshit. Honestly. If this is the standard for originality some of you apply, then Walter's table should cause you to have quivering Nazi trinket squirting orgasms because he has far more sexy and detailed stories chumming his Nazi xmas ornaments, shitepaper, and other fake Nazi trinkets. Applying such bullshit nothing is fake. And that's the point of a vendor of fakes and bullshit isn't it? Could the swap meet vendor "vet" been a bullshitter hustling fake ornaments to a teenage M45 in 1977? Was there less bullshit in the 70s? Could that "vet" at the swap meet have been a younger Walter himself? Can you prove it wasn't? Trying to force someone to prove a negative is the gold standard for a bullshitter. If it can't be proved that these ornaments were not on one of Hitler's Christmas trees they must be original.

When I was 13 as a table helper I knew better than to bet much money on random "vet stories" at a late 70s gun show, much less a "swap meet". I wish I had $10 for every "vet" who wasn't a vet at all, or if he was a vet he was bullshitting. I vividly remember one "vet" carrying around a cigar box of all the "Nazi badges" he "took off dead Krauts." Half of them were lead fakes. The other ones were just poor quality fakes. Newsflash: little old men bullshit about being vets and vets bullshit, and on top of that, bullshitting vets bullshit about "relics" they "brought home" which they really picked up at a flea market in the 60s or 70s. I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous thread I've seen on this site that wasn't sarcasm or parody.

M45, how do you know that was a real "vet" at the swap meet in "about 1977"? How do you know if he was a vet that he wasn't telling a kid a bullshit story to sell some bullshit postwar ornaments he put in a cigar box? The quality of those ornaments is a bit crude by the way. If I put something in a cigar box from 1950 it becomes legit? A magic Hav-A-Tampa cigar box? This "vet" carefully packed Hitler's ornaments in cotton in a postwar cigar box and carried them home from Europe?

Those who believe the ornaments original pre-1946 Nazi "Hilter" tree Nazi ornaments, produce your evidence. Evidence is not bullshitting about other's bullshit. Evidence is not bullshit such as "it could be real and you can't prove it isn't" or "Germans used mercury and these look like mercury so they're real." If all we've got is a random unknown dude at a swap meet telling a teenage M45 that he was a "vet" (how do you know?) with a story about finding these in a "damaged house" (where?), etc., then frankly that's an embarrassingly absurd standard of "authentication" without more. Where's the more? Let's see it.
 
Perhaps one of the hardest things for some collectors is to accept that the item they have is not what they thought it was. To realize they got bullshitted, conned, ripped off and there is no recourse. It can happen to the best of us and you either accept it or don`t. Some come to terms with their mistake and move on, learning to be more cautious and educated about what they collect. Others get angry, refuting any opinions contrary to what they want to hear. You can present all the evidence to back up your claim of realism that you want. That is your right. But at the end of the day, if such item is deemed bullshit by the collective majority, then it sir, is bullshit.
 
M45 is repeating his buying experience and the story he was told 45 years ago. We can assume HE’S not bullshitting us. However, was the unknown 1970s swap meet mystery “vet” bullshitting him? Does bullshit become non-bullshit when it’s re-told or spread? Does bullshit turn into reality with the passage of time, like grapes becoming wine or debris in an oyster becoming a pearl or dinosaur shite becoming gas for your truck? If bullshit is said enough and if you bullshit yourself enough does it become real or is it still bullshit? Dorothy bullshitted herself home, but she had magic ruby slippers and that was a movie about a bizarre vivid dream she was having. Does the magic cigar box here work the same way? The other example of this phenomenon I can readily cite would be Democrats, the MSM, and the Disney animated feature “Pinnochio” where a wooden puppet bullshits its way into becoming a human being with the help of the bullshit from a talking cricket. But then again in cartoons all things are possible, even crazy bullshit from characters that don’t even talk bullshit (see, e.g., “The Roadrunner“).

I’ve got a newsflash for some of you guys: without more, which I don’t see here, second hand bullshit does not become fact or truth in the retelling or with the passage of time. I’m not saying that all we think is bullshit is in fact 100% bullshit. However, transforming bullshit into non-bullshit requires evidence and support. Mixing bullshit with reality does not transform bullshit into reality. This is particularly true with hearsay bullshit and more true with hearsay bullshit about hearsay bullshit and so on and so forth. For you proponents, where is your non-bullshit evidence and support? Trying to refute contradictory information is not evidence or support. It’s still bullshit. You have to come up with your own evidence and support. Where is this?

I deal with professional level bullshit every day. For you who do not understand bullshit, or how to identify it, I submit the following and suggest that you watch it.

 
Here are more examples. Note the old man bullshit and the acknowledgement of the myth that old man bullshit is more credible than other bullshit. Young bullshitters become old bullshitters and just because a man is old this does not mean he is a “vet” or not bullshitting you, particularly if he is selling something at a swap meet or funshow where the bullshit flows like a waterfall.

 
Walter's table should cause you to have quivering Nazi trinket squirting orgasms because he has far more sexy and detailed stories! Well apparently this idea worked, because me and Mike watched a guy spend $1,000 on that six piece or 7 piece SS Christmas tree ornament set. And he kept going on that he was so excited to own such a rare piece of History, he was so happy. Walter just kept smiling like a possum eating shite that he just sold a bunch of fake Eastern European made crap for $1,000 to a sucker. Think about this? Walter has been peddling fake shite for half a century almost. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars, or more. Fakes has he flooded the market over those years?

I'll be honest when I'm collecting rare items in this market. If I'm in the market for k98k Sniper or an SS rework k98k. When I do come across such an item I already assumed it's a fake. When I actually look at the item. I have to use my knowledge and research to tell me that this item is not a fake, but from the get-go you have to believe it's a fake from the start. And going by this formula has never let me down. I still remember at the SOS show about 3 years ago when me, Dave Roberts, and Matt Darnell looked at an SS k98k sniper rifle. The gentleman that had it said it won the best of a show award 20 years ago, it was in a few books, and it was brought back by a veteran. This rifle was 100% original! We all took one look at it and said hey thanks for letting us look at it, it's a nice piece and walked away. For starters the stock was wrong, too many SS markings, scope was wrong, the mount was wrong, etc. That rifle was a hunk of shite but for some reason thousands of people voted for it to be the best show winner 20 years ago. So too collectors out there don't buy into bullshit and stories without info or evidence. I mean seriously I can write a really cool story to sell with one of my items if someone is willing to pay me $10,000 for one of my k98k rifles.
 
You can apply this to ANY item or story but I can tell you with absolute certainty 'vets' are among the biggest bullshitters in the history of bullshitters. NO doubt.

150%. The last WW2 combat vet I recall speaking with who was not a bullshitter quietly told me about his single day fighting at “the ‘Bulge”. He then took off his coat and showed me his “souvenirs”, the scars of where 7.92 bullets from a MG.42 hit him in the chest and shoulder and spun him around and likely killed the man directly behind him and another one went through the back of his tricep, ripped through the front of his bicep, entered the top of his forearm, exited the bottom, blowing and splintering his M1 out of his hands, and removing the two middle fingers of his left hand in the process. That same burst killed the man in front of him and two men behind him that he remembered. He said he could close his eyes and see, hear, and smell all of this like it was happening now. He remembered nothing after that except waking up in a hospital in England. They were using his platoon to scout ahead of M4 Shermans in a snowy field as they were more expendable than tanks. I didn’t catch a single word of bullshit in his polite and humble story. His wife was tearing up hearing this and had encouraged him to tell me about it.
 

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