Well said!
Xmas ornaments from Hitler's tree
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Go back and look at the swastikas and inconsistencies in paint and overall paint quality. I think a product with a swastika would have to be licensed in any event, not free style for anyone to do.
The Micro Jo video shows them or similar to be Eastern European painted glass fakes of the same style, just cheaper and poor quality.
We are thus left with M45's story, which I believe him, though beyond that who knows, and the reality of such ornaments. Assume it fake and let the circumstances, information, objective observations, etc., prove otherwise.
M45
Well-known member
If you are looking for an apparent original ornament with a 'perfect' swaz, what about this one ? This one has a printed swaz, not a hand painted one.
I think those doubters are basically saying they want a period photo to prove such things existed.
Considering the vast amounts of war booty brought back from Europe during and after WWII, no one person or even a group of people can lay claim to having seen EVERYTHING that had been brought back.
If you are not comfortable collecting in a certain field, don't collect there.
I think those doubters are basically saying they want a period photo to prove such things existed.
Considering the vast amounts of war booty brought back from Europe during and after WWII, no one person or even a group of people can lay claim to having seen EVERYTHING that had been brought back.
If you are not comfortable collecting in a certain field, don't collect there.
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The problem isn't that they didn't exist, they did otherwise they would have been outlawed.
The question is how can you tell you are dealing with one made pre May 1933 and a post war souvenir reproduction.
Quality of production and finish, even the design of the actual swastika aren't good guidelines because those that ended up on Goebbels naughty list were of poor quality and bad design too.
Btw even if they were of good quality and had a decent swastika they were illegal under the anti kitsch law, the NSDAP was against the use of swastika baubles, that is why it upsets me a bit that even a serious institute as the Smithsonian opens an article about how the Nazi's celebrated Christmas with them, if there was one thing they wouldn't have used it was a Swastika Christmas bauble, it doesn't take much research to know that, I read it as a teenager in a book written for teenagers about the rise of facism, thus a serious historian should know this too, it seems "research" to write an article is nothing more then a quick google search.
Also that silly Hitler head bauble Walter K peddles is based on one that was made and sold in Germany before the Anti Kitsch law was enforced.
The question is how can you tell you are dealing with one made pre May 1933 and a post war souvenir reproduction.
Quality of production and finish, even the design of the actual swastika aren't good guidelines because those that ended up on Goebbels naughty list were of poor quality and bad design too.
Btw even if they were of good quality and had a decent swastika they were illegal under the anti kitsch law, the NSDAP was against the use of swastika baubles, that is why it upsets me a bit that even a serious institute as the Smithsonian opens an article about how the Nazi's celebrated Christmas with them, if there was one thing they wouldn't have used it was a Swastika Christmas bauble, it doesn't take much research to know that, I read it as a teenager in a book written for teenagers about the rise of facism, thus a serious historian should know this too, it seems "research" to write an article is nothing more then a quick google search.
Also that silly Hitler head bauble Walter K peddles is based on one that was made and sold in Germany before the Anti Kitsch law was enforced.
tjg79
Senior Member
A period photo would help make the case. I searched and couldn't find one example, but that doesn't prove they're fake.
I would think the printed swaz is more likely fake than the blown glass swaz, but I'm only guessing. I wasn't aware of the Anti Kitsch law until this thread. Without something else to prove their period existence, it's just some guy's opinion, and we all know how unreliable "expurt" opinions can be.
Honestly, I don't recall seeing anything swastika adorned pre-1946 that was kitsch or not DRGM marked, etc., like party approved tinnies, daggers, etc. Again, I think if one was peddling crude looking painted glass Christmas bulbs with Hitler heads or swastikas one would end up at Dachau and/or domed. I think if you did score the contract for Nazi ornaments they wouldn't look like a kid painted them. This style glass ornament was prevalent in Germany and everywhere else during the 40s-70s. My grandparents had boxes of them (US made) of Santas, reindeer, etc. There were occupation troops all about from 1946 on and who knows. Did the vet bring them back after acquiring some postwar, made to appeal to occupation troops? Who knows.
DaveDavis
Well-known member
EXACTLY !!!!!!
M45
Well-known member
GERMANY-CHRISTMAS-DECORATIONS-HISTORY-TRADITION
Christmas tree decorations featuring Nazi swastikas made during the Second World War are on display at the "Christmas Tree Decorations from the 19th Century until Today" exhibition at the German History Museum in Berlin on December 19, 2018. (Photo by John MACDOUGALL / AFP) (Photo credit should read JOHN MACDOUGALL/AFP via Getty Images)
Some interesting photos from a xmas tree decoration exhibition. Notice the sunwheel swaz bulb is listed in the period advertisement.
Christmas tree decorations featuring Nazi swastikas made during the Second World War are on display at the "Christmas Tree Decorations from the 19th Century until Today" exhibition at the German History Museum in Berlin on December 19, 2018. (Photo by John MACDOUGALL / AFP) (Photo credit should read JOHN MACDOUGALL/AFP via Getty Images)
85 Nazi Christmas Stock Photos, High-Res Pictures, and Images - Getty Images
Explore Authentic Nazi Christmas Stock Photos & Images For Your Project Or Campaign. Less Searching, More Finding With Getty Images.
www.gettyimages.com
Some interesting photos from a xmas tree decoration exhibition. Notice the sunwheel swaz bulb is listed in the period advertisement.
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The advertisment is for Christmas or Julfest decorations with old Germanic symbols, not NSDAP symbols, exactly to be confirm with the May 1933 law that prohibited the production and sales of objects with NSDAP symbols and Hitler images on kitsch items.
The Waldmann company knew exactly what they were doing, just like today they had a legal department or a lawyer that gave them advise on what they could put on the market and what not and using the term "Old Germanic" and a swastika that didn't look like the NSDAP version was there way to work around the limitations of the May 1933 anti kitsch law and earn some money on the new religion that was a hype in Germany.
M45, the one with which you started the thread, was exactly the type the May 1933 Anti Kitsch Law was written for and was put on the list of prohibited objects in the statue books.
The Waldmann company knew exactly what they were doing, just like today they had a legal department or a lawyer that gave them advise on what they could put on the market and what not and using the term "Old Germanic" and a swastika that didn't look like the NSDAP version was there way to work around the limitations of the May 1933 anti kitsch law and earn some money on the new religion that was a hype in Germany.
M45, the one with which you started the thread, was exactly the type the May 1933 Anti Kitsch Law was written for and was put on the list of prohibited objects in the statue books.
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If Walter K is reading this thread, he is laughing his way to the bank!
This is exactly what he needs, just the slightest sliver of proof to convince his customers that the fake crap he is peddling has a chance of being authentic.
In this case: NSDAP Swasitka and Hitler head Christmas baubles existed and he found the unsold stock.
Now just proof that those he is selling are recent reproductions.
And I'am not blaiming you M45, in fact I'am blaiming myself because I gave him the best sliver of evidence he needed, a link to an actual law that confirms that they were of crappy quality and produced in the 1930's.
This is exactly what he needs, just the slightest sliver of proof to convince his customers that the fake crap he is peddling has a chance of being authentic.
In this case: NSDAP Swasitka and Hitler head Christmas baubles existed and he found the unsold stock.
Now just proof that those he is selling are recent reproductions.
And I'am not blaiming you M45, in fact I'am blaiming myself because I gave him the best sliver of evidence he needed, a link to an actual law that confirms that they were of crappy quality and produced in the 1930's.
M45
Well-known member
I think you're splitting hairs with the NSDAP swaz vs. the gothic sunwheel swaz. They are BOTH swastikas! There are also NSDAP 'style' swazes in the same Getty photos on other ornaments/decorations. So the NSDAP swaz WAS approved for use on xmas decorations in general.
Once again, I think you've confused the definition of 'kitsch'. It was not an NSDAP swaz on a xmas baubles/decorations in general that was the problem, IMO. It was the cheap, gaudy brick-a-brack that made the regime look silly and is what offended them (could have been a variety of items). Quality made items that celebrated the winter holiday from a National Socialist perspective is what they wanted, and the anti-kitsch laws were not intended to prevent Nazis from doing what they wanted.
M45, are you now suggesting that the ones you posted are quality pieces?
Even you must see that they are of piss poor quality, just like everyone else does.
For the 77th time, they were produced and sold and then prohibited in May 1933.
Now show me a picture or and advert made after May 1933 that shows those silly swastika (red/white/black) baubles, like the ones you have, being sold and/or used.
You have shown everything else but not what you need to show, you know why you haven't been able to show them, because there aren't, if there was such an image available with a google search, Walter K and his buddy Thomas W, would have blasted it on YouTube already.
Believe me, they would have done it. Walter didn't buy those things to hang them in his own Christmas tree every year again and again, he has bought them to sell them to earn money and what better way to proof his "stock" is authentic is a picture of them being used.
Even you must see that they are of piss poor quality, just like everyone else does.
For the 77th time, they were produced and sold and then prohibited in May 1933.
Now show me a picture or and advert made after May 1933 that shows those silly swastika (red/white/black) baubles, like the ones you have, being sold and/or used.
You have shown everything else but not what you need to show, you know why you haven't been able to show them, because there aren't, if there was such an image available with a google search, Walter K and his buddy Thomas W, would have blasted it on YouTube already.
Believe me, they would have done it. Walter didn't buy those things to hang them in his own Christmas tree every year again and again, he has bought them to sell them to earn money and what better way to proof his "stock" is authentic is a picture of them being used.
I agree with Peter's assessment. I think there is a significant difference insofar as "copyright" or intellectual property is concerned with the old Germanic pinwheel type swastika and the NSDAP form. With respect to museums, I have seen them make significant errors with respect to displays of militaria. The National D-Day Museum is filled with them. I've never been to a museum that wasn't.
M45
Well-known member
I think the Walter K. horde is of recent manufacture within the last few years. They all have a silvery base and are easily recognizable. Those others that do not resemble these are clearly not associated with them but are being unjustly judged nonetheless.
Yes, I'm saying the ones I posted are quality pieces, meaning they are of the same or similar quality as other bulbs/ornaments of the era - apparently glass blown into a mold, cooled, then template spray painted and then hand painted with metal hook and cap fittings with string. This is the same way most of the period ornaments I've seen appear to have been made.
A Kitsch ornament would be a cheap copy of an ornament. I would imagine something made of paper or pressed paper, covered with printed swazes and hitler caricatures, a one-use item meant to be thrown away afterwards.
I recall from my earlier days of collecting a photo about the kitsch laws that had several black uniformed SS men pouring over a table full of kitsch items, all very cheaply made, many with multiple swazes. I recall a party favor horn as one of the items. Cannot recall which book it was in.
The baubles I posted would be no more offensive to nazis celebrating the winter holiday than would be the sunwheel swaz baubles, the swaz tree topper, or the golden swaz wall hangars.
Here is a period postcard showing swaz marked bells and swaz baublettes with a swaz sun symbol.
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M45
Well-known member
File:Nazi-Kitsch.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
Here is some nazi kitsch. Nazi symbols on cheaply made bric-a-brack. The paper lamp may fall into that category as well.
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