Xmas ornaments from Hitler's tree
- Thread starter M45
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tjg79
Senior Member
You need to do some research. Apparently, Lauscha, Germany is the birthplace of the glass-blown bauble. Some of those proprietors have moulds that date to the late 20s. You should contact them and see if they can provide any information about your examples. I would think that someone there could possibly authenticate your baubles, if they are legit, or direct you to a source for more information.
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M45
Well-known member
Thanks for that, tjg. Here is a possible website.
Krebs Glas Lauscha | Online Shop der weltbesten Christbaumkugeln
Handgefertigte Glasartikel & Figuren, Glaskugeln & Spitzen für Christbäume in top Qualität. Bestellen Sie einfach, günstig und schnell. Wir versenden weltweit.
www.krebsglaslauscha.de
tjg79
Senior Member
Take a look at my post #79. The guys you want to make contact with will have the old moulds. They likely wouldn't have the mould for your examples, but they may be able to recognize the general pattern if it's legit. If you take the right approach, they may be very helpful. Let them know that this is a TR era research project, and any information is good information. You may get lucky.
www.thueringen-entdecken.de
Weihnachten: Lauscha
Eager to learn more about the Thuringian tradition of glassblowing and Christmas baubles? Read now!
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In summation:
1) Documentary evidence against it: Anti-Kitsch laws, lack of any DRGM or patent markings, and they look rather crude, cheaply made, which would not fly with Nazis. The old Germanic/Nordic "swastika wheel" is different from the swastika. People get around copyright today with such design mods. That "swastika wheel" or Nordic "sun wheel" was around, what, at least a thousand years before the Nazis?
norse-mythology.org
2) Ease of cheap production through the 70s: This style of ornament was made worldwide probably from whenever through the 1970s, even today. Again, my grandparents had boxes of them from various department stores (not the Swastika ones 
They weren't expensive. I don't know how they are made but it seems to me that if there was a market for the swastika ones at any time from June 1, 1945 to present they could be made.
3) No period evidence: There is no period photographic evidence of them.
4) Presumption fake until shown otherwise: it is presumptively invalid until the cumulation of facts, circumstances, and evidence prove it original. "Stories" have some weight, but not much. Buy the artifact, not the story.
5) Prevalence of known fakes of these ornaments: ibid.
1) Documentary evidence against it: Anti-Kitsch laws, lack of any DRGM or patent markings, and they look rather crude, cheaply made, which would not fly with Nazis. The old Germanic/Nordic "swastika wheel" is different from the swastika. People get around copyright today with such design mods. That "swastika wheel" or Nordic "sun wheel" was around, what, at least a thousand years before the Nazis?
The Swastika - Its Ancient Origins and Modern (Mis)use - Norse Mythology for Smart People
The swastika is one of the oldest and most widespread of humanity’s symbols. It can be found on artifacts thousands of years old from several continents. While it was used by the Norse and other Germanic peoples from the beginnings of those societies, the swastika is far from just a Germanic...
norse-mythology.org
They weren't expensive. I don't know how they are made but it seems to me that if there was a market for the swastika ones at any time from June 1, 1945 to present they could be made.3) No period evidence: There is no period photographic evidence of them.
4) Presumption fake until shown otherwise: it is presumptively invalid until the cumulation of facts, circumstances, and evidence prove it original. "Stories" have some weight, but not much. Buy the artifact, not the story.
5) Prevalence of known fakes of these ornaments: ibid.
The Max show of 2017.
Go to 18:00 for the start of the Christmas bauble BS.
And if you go to 20:58 you'll see Ole Walter using the exact same google images M45 has shown in this thread to proof that his rubish is authentic.
It is the footage from this YouTube video that MicroJo used to make his video to expose them as fakes.
All of these things became illegal in Nazi Germany after May 1933, something Ole Walter just forgets to mention.
Very importantly no period photographic evidence or documents are available of these Christmas baubles ever being used between May 1933 and May 1945 and their are plenty of Nazi era Christmas celebration pictures, you'll see Christmas trees with cardboard swastikas and all kinds or Germanic symbols but not of a factory made bauble with a Reichs/NSDAP Swastika on it.
If such a picture exists, Walter K would be the first to show it to the world on his buddy Thomas W YouTube channel that is an absolute certainty; their is a follow up YouTube video were these two clowns are angry because of the success of the MicroJo video which bombed the sales of this crap.
What is available is the actual statue book of May 1933 that lists these as illegal objects.
This to me is not a contest to see WHO is right, but to get to the right answer for the knowledge base. I like M45 personally and have a good bit of respect for his contributions to the hobby knowledge base on helmet lot numbers. The lot number research is what helped break the Great Champagne Rune Hoax. The opinions here are all valid and well thought out by people whom I like personally and whose opinions I trust. This is a quality discussion and fun. I just ran across this as a "similar thread":
Louisville Fair Board comes down on Klan and Christmas ornaments....at SOS
https://www.courier-journal.com/videos/news/local/2018/11/15/thats-not-who-we-are-kentucky-fair-board-chair-talks-nazi-memorabilia-ban/2013847002/ So long Walter....
www.k98kforum.com
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
For me THIS is the thing. It's absolutely about not being right but finding the right (or most correct) answer. The discussion and discourse matters.
No idea if the Christmas ornaments are original Nazi or not.
However, the discussion does bring to mind something I read many years ago, by one of the higher Nazis.
I don't remember who said it, it may come to me out of the depths of my long-term memory loss, it may not. Might have been Speer, can't say for sure.
But this guy did mention that one of the most difficult things that fell under his responsibility was trying to stop the manufacture and sales of all kinds of "Kitsch" items using NS symbols and images.
There obviously was a period when Germans loved this kind of stuff, and it was common and popular enough that someone highly placed remembered it and talked about it.
However, the discussion does bring to mind something I read many years ago, by one of the higher Nazis.
I don't remember who said it, it may come to me out of the depths of my long-term memory loss, it may not. Might have been Speer, can't say for sure.
But this guy did mention that one of the most difficult things that fell under his responsibility was trying to stop the manufacture and sales of all kinds of "Kitsch" items using NS symbols and images.
There obviously was a period when Germans loved this kind of stuff, and it was common and popular enough that someone highly placed remembered it and talked about it.
As someone who has lived in Germany, with family who lived through those times, I have to disagree with that.. You might get a call or a letter, or somebody stop by, to ask you not to do that. They wouldn't be beating people up or tossing them in prison for putting swastikas on stuff, even if they might not think it was exactly appropriate.
The Nazis loved their swastikas. The German people loved their swastikas. Nazis definitely made widespread use of the swastika, they wanted that symbol imprinted in people's minds. Like the little paper swastika flags they printed and handed out for people to wave for important days and events, like Hitler driving through your town.
Something else to consider is that various laws and regulations were not uniformly enforced throughout the Reich. If you local Nazi party official, Gauleiter, whatever, was a fanatic Nazi, enforcement would be on a higher level than if he was a Sgt. Schultz kind of guy.
So I reckon there’s another anecdotally related story and opinion to add to the “real” side of the ledger. I think the preponderance of the evidence is on the “not wartime / fake” side. The “news” about the “museum” loses all credibility (as if the “news” has any to begin with) by featuring the scary zombie Hitlerhed ornament, the same one Walter is peddling in the video. More of them from a credible source, documentary evidence, or period photograph, even a period story could push the needle toward the “real” side.
M45
Well-known member
In summation:
1) Documentary evidence against it: Anti-Kitsch laws, lack of any DRGM or patent markings, and they look rather crude, cheaply made, which would not fly with Nazis. The old Germanic/Nordic "swastika wheel" is different from the swastika. People get around copyright today with such design mods. That "swastika wheel" or Nordic "sun wheel" was around, what, at least a thousand years before the Nazis?
2) Ease of cheap production through the 70s: This style of ornament was made worldwide probably from whenever through the 1970s, even today. Again, my grandparents had boxes of them from various department stores (not the Swastika onesThe Swastika - Its Ancient Origins and Modern (Mis)use - Norse Mythology for Smart People
The swastika is one of the oldest and most widespread of humanity’s symbols. It can be found on artifacts thousands of years old from several continents. While it was used by the Norse and other Germanic peoples from the beginnings of those societies, the swastika is far from just a Germanic...
3) No period evidence: There is no period photographic evidence of them.
4) Presumption fake until shown otherwise: it is presumptively invalid until the cumulation of facts, circumstances, and evidence prove it original. "Stories" have some weight, but not much. Buy the artifact, not the story.
5) Prevalence of known fakes of these ornaments: ibid.
It is perplexing to hear you say you don't know how they were made. This is the linchpin of the entire thread, IMO. If my baubles were cheaply made, that would suggest kitsch production in line with Peter's thinking.This to me is not a contest to see WHO is right, but to get to the right answer for the knowledge base. I like M45 personally and have a good bit of respect for his contributions to the hobby knowledge base on helmet lot numbers. The lot number research is what helped break the Great Champagne Rune Hoax. The opinions here are all valid and well thought out by people whom I like personally and whose opinions I trust. This is a quality discussion and fun. I just ran across this as a "similar thread":
Louisville Fair Board comes down on Klan and Christmas ornaments....at SOS
https://www.courier-journal.com/videos/news/local/2018/11/15/thats-not-who-we-are-kentucky-fair-board-chair-talks-nazi-memorabilia-ban/2013847002/ So long Walter....
If they were quality production like other baubles of the period (not cheap imitations of holiday ornaments but actual ornaments) that would suggest approved TR period production.
If we don't know how they were made, then we probably will not get to the right answer for the knowledge base.
So how were they made ? First off, just look at them carefully. They appear to be blown glass production. Now go to tjg's post #79 and look at that U-toob clip of a glass blowing operation.
A heated balloon of glass is placed into a mold, mold clamped shut, glass balloon inflated to the shape of the mold, then heat annealed. Painting afterwards.
The same manufacturing process appears to have produced my baubles.
RE: the anti-kitsch laws, keep in mind that in May 1933 the 3rd Reich was in its infancy and just growing in to its totalitarian "legs". These rules most likely had exceptions, especially later in time when higher ranking authorities wanted some "forbidden item" on the kitsch list produced for themselves. Remember, kitsch laws (and laws in general) were created mainly to keep the masses in line. Ranking authorities naturally had much more leeway in this regard.
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Warrior1354
ax - hole
M45
Well-known member
Demanding period photographic evidence/documentation for rare Third Reich militaria/memorabilia/regalia to be accepted as genuine is like asking for the Moon. It would be VERY unlikely to find such things on the spur of the moment with no prior research.
And IF such evidence exists in print, it could take years to find it even with a concerted effort.
If such evidence is NOT in print (in archives, in a drawer somewhere, for example) it could take decades to find it.
What I find a bit unfair is that only certain people are asked to produce such evidence. This is in contrast to EVERYONE who posts items being asked to produce period evidence to conclusively prove that their items "exist".
I don't know how chewing gum is made but I've been working that shite for a long time. I know that they don't have individuals blowing these out by hand, individually. That's because my grandparents had boxes full of the damn things from the dime store for cheap. Santa, elves, reindeer, gingerbread houses, all kinds of things. If they were expensive we wouldn't have been putting firecrackers in them and blowing up Santa on the driveway in a million tiny thin colored glass pieces while my grandfather laughed and said "y'all will need to clean that up!" Those that you posted are made in a cheap factory process. If they were expensive and individually made I doubt they would be painted in such a crude fashion.
There is no hypocrisy here. We ask for photographic proof because these are highly controversial, as in treated as a joke by many, sold by Walter at The Max. The evidence against their legitimacy is far more compelling than the evidence in favor of legitimacy. These are sold by Walter and generally gooned in videos. We have plenty pics of Xmas decorations in Nazi Germany, just none of these, nothing close. The kiss of death for the "museum" and "news" story authenticating them was that blue zombie Hitler head, which Walter has hanging all over his displays and which even his podnuh doing the interview smirks and goons.
So, applying the presumption that such things are fake until they prove themselves legit, what proof do we have that they are legit?
M45, you scream bloody murder when you see a series of helmets that have the same unit painted in the skirt, one of the helmets being a relic piece found in France, with a value of perhaps 250€.
That is your good right and I think the forum members here have given a decent explanation on why they consider it to be authentic and you don't have to agree with it and that is your good right too.
So you know we are in to facts and research.
Now you post one of the most controversial objects in recent years in our hobby and you are somehow surprised that we don't celebrate the discovery of the first authentic mythical Swasitka Christmas bauble, when the only evidence you provide is "got it from a vet" provenance and some images you found with a google search (btw the exact same image Walter K uses to proof his crap is the real deal).
The members on this forum are way to critical to accept an oral provenance and some images from a google search that infact show nothing more then that a Christmas tree was still allowed under Nazi rule as evidence that it is a pre May 1945 piece.
In the case of such an object you will have to bring more to the table to get it accepted as being the real deal.
My most beloved museum, the Belgian Army museum in Brussels has outright fakes on display in their WW2 section.
Walter K makes a living of peddling objects that might be real, could be authentic, have solid oral provenance and are sold with a money back guarantee if you can proof that they are fake and that proof is that you can show an invoice that confirms that he orded it from a company in China.
That is your good right and I think the forum members here have given a decent explanation on why they consider it to be authentic and you don't have to agree with it and that is your good right too.
So you know we are in to facts and research.
Now you post one of the most controversial objects in recent years in our hobby and you are somehow surprised that we don't celebrate the discovery of the first authentic mythical Swasitka Christmas bauble, when the only evidence you provide is "got it from a vet" provenance and some images you found with a google search (btw the exact same image Walter K uses to proof his crap is the real deal).
The members on this forum are way to critical to accept an oral provenance and some images from a google search that infact show nothing more then that a Christmas tree was still allowed under Nazi rule as evidence that it is a pre May 1945 piece.
In the case of such an object you will have to bring more to the table to get it accepted as being the real deal.
My most beloved museum, the Belgian Army museum in Brussels has outright fakes on display in their WW2 section.
Walter K makes a living of peddling objects that might be real, could be authentic, have solid oral provenance and are sold with a money back guarantee if you can proof that they are fake and that proof is that you can show an invoice that confirms that he orded it from a company in China.
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An article in German how the Anti Nazi-Kitsch law and the illegal use of NSDAP related symbols was enforced.
It wasn't a laughing matter, entrepreneurs that thought the law didn't apply to them and thought they could continue with business as usual were wrong, in August 1933 the political police issued a last warning and strictly enforced the law from September 1933 onwards.
From then onwards the Swastika Christmas bauble fun was over!
