Hum,that's odd I don't use tap talk on my I Pad.
Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Hum,that's odd I don't use tap talk on my I Pad.
Frank F.
Well-known member
Guys, you need to get a room and get it on there. This bickering and the personal attacks are just polluting it all. I enjoy this thread not because I agree with everything, but because it offers different points of views and insights and I appreciate that more than the herd mentality that comes out so many times elsewhere.
Just stay on target and be polite — you know what they say about opinions.
F.
Just stay on target and be polite — you know what they say about opinions.
F.
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I could use phone or tablet to access site through browser but I prefer to use tapatalk
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Niblet
Left Nad
after looking at this lid I have to agree collect something other than camos AND wire helmets
I dont like the the one your selling now either,,sorry
M45
Well-known member
We're not trying to be jerks here, Mr. Corioles. I've been trying to communicate some ideas about modern camo collecting, but unfortunately it's spurring people to go on the attack.
By seeing what is being posted on helmet forums (re: questionable camos) and seeing collectors reactions to them (re: mostly positive) I have come to realize that most camo collectors are in way over their heads in the hobby. And the sad thing is, they don't even realize it.
I would say that most of the older veteran collectors can see what is happening because they were collecting before the internet era and have seen plenty of original camos at shows. They understand many of the characteristics of originals. They also know the relative proportions of camos to reissues to factory helmets in the collecting world. They see red flags when loads of exotic freshies self-replicate out of the woodwork.
It is similar to the veteran SS helmet collectors who had collected for decades prior to the C-SS introduction, knowing right away that something was wrong. They had never seen this 'new SS decal variant' before and they all seemed to be near 99% condition. Newer SS helmet collectors were sucked right in, especially when forum buddies reassured them that all was well. But all was not well by a long shot. It has been a very painful and expensive process for the community to finally begin rejecting C-SS.
This later generation of camo collectors (5 years and less) are inexperienced and are dazzled by all of the fancy camo patterns and textures and wires. They are being sucked right in because their forum buddies are pointing to period photos of exotic camos and assuring them that all is well. But all is not well by a long shot. It will eventually be a very painful and expensive process for the community to finally begin rejecting fake camos. This might begin in earnest someday, probably not by opinions of collectors like myself, but most likely by advanced technology that will be able to peer into layers of paint and give detailed non-destructive analysis of compounds by layer.
Once that technology becomes perfected and proven, there will be many stunned collectors who realize that the majority of their prized camo collections are actually expensive movie props.
Player11
Right Nad
So, lets see if i understood it right, you mean that camo collectors cant see what is there?, and you yes?, c´mon, please, be more serious. Ok,, you are refering only to this forum where a small group of collectors are following to you or you are meaning to the rest of the forums, where most collectors are?. If you mean general forums.... do you think that camo collectors dont have enought camos to study in hands what is a real camo?, are you the only one who can see it?. Ok, show us your camo collection, because in your thread about your helmet collection, i have only seen late M42s, and casually, for somebody who says to be an expert on decaled helmets, no one is there.
Lets not talk about camos...
Exactly,he has no camos but has all this knowledge?
I'm just using his line of logic.
That's like saying I'm a race car driver but don't own a car.
Niblet
Left Nad
you dont need to own a camo helmet to point out all the discrepancies shown in the various photos.
I dont own any myself, and even I can see the tool marks, contrived wear, new (recent) corrosion, etc,
this line of argument is a lame attempt to discredit the works of M45 even more,,,
I want you camo owners to present eveidence supporting WHY you think your crappy lids are period
I dont own any myself, and even I can see the tool marks, contrived wear, new (recent) corrosion, etc,
this line of argument is a lame attempt to discredit the works of M45 even more,,,
I want you camo owners to present eveidence supporting WHY you think your crappy lids are period
So handling camos and in hand study is trivial?
So now we have 2 "experienced" camo commenters that don't own camos.
Go look at the other threads here where his cut and paste analysis was shown totally wrong.
Sorry,relying on period pics to make a point is stupid.
Like I said before he produces pics of medics to back up a claim that is just his opinion,no basis in fact.
You or he won't answer this,why?
If I produce a period pic of a "exotic Camo" does it make my case better or true?
Of course not.But why is it gospel when he does it?Or trying to " discredit him" ,laughable.
He's entitled to his wrong opinion and I'm free to tell him so.
Picking out novice attempts on E Bay is not impressive.
This is so silly.
M45
Well-known member
Forgeries tend to show similar characteristics. The Champagne-SS forgery is a prime example. I understand production ranged from the mid '70s to the '90s. These things appeared one day and began multiplying with no clear traceable provenance to any of them. In Ken N.'s decal book he says that one of the factors telling him C-SS was fake was that there was never any rock-solid provenance tracing C-SS helmets to vets; they could only be traced to other collectors.
With questionable camos similarly, these things just appear "out of the woodwork" with no real provenance tracing them to vets; if there is any traceable history, they can only be traced to other collectors.
With C-SS there were forum groups promoting them as authentic which caused many collectors to believe in them. Similarly with questionable camos.
C-SS were sold by dealers as authentic; similarly with questionable camos.
C-SS being highly desirable "elite" helmets were not cheap to purchase by any means, examples ranging from $4K to $25K. Likewise, questionable camos are expensive one-of-a-kind "field modified" helmets typically ranging from $2K-$4K with some examples selling for $12,500.
With C-SS, period photos were alluded to as justification of their existence such as the reference to hkp M42 SS helmets. Also with questionable camos, period photos of exotic camos are pointed to as justification of all types of unusual camos.
Another factor that tipped off Ken N. to the C-SS forgery was that all examples were near 99% insignia condition, no 10%, 50% etc... Known original SS helmets can be found with decals with a wide range of conditions. Similarly with questionable camos, examples tend to show near consistent 99% camo coverage with few heavily worn examples.
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M45
Well-known member
Mauser, we've discussed period photos in relation to camos before. It can be stumbling block.
We have period photos of row upon row of black M35 SS parade helmets. Where are all of those SS blackies today ? Only a relative handful have survived.
We have period photos of ranks of marching paratroops with M36/M37 para helmets. Where are all of those M36/37 para helmets today ? Only a relative handful have survived.
Period photos show what existed long ago, they do not show necessarily what has survived to today, or in as large of numbers as the period photos might suggest.
We have period photos of row upon row of black M35 SS parade helmets. Where are all of those SS blackies today ? Only a relative handful have survived.
We have period photos of ranks of marching paratroops with M36/M37 para helmets. Where are all of those M36/37 para helmets today ? Only a relative handful have survived.
Period photos show what existed long ago, they do not show necessarily what has survived to today, or in as large of numbers as the period photos might suggest.
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Player11
Right Nad
AAAaaaaaaahhhh, ok!!!
Could you, please, tell me how a paint camo smells?, because it has a particular smell.
Could you, please, tell me how a decal is affected for the camo paint when the paint is over the eagle and the eagle pops up from an area of the paint?.
Could you, please, tell me how an original markt over the camo paint gets old after 70 years ?
Could you, please, tell me how the rust comes throught the old paint?
Could you, please, tell me how the new rust comes throught the new fake paint?
Could you, please, tell me how a fake camo paint work over an old rust ?
Niblet
Left Nad
Player11
Right Nad
