Questionable Camos

[Hambone]

It's amazing how many guys came up to me and mentioned this thread and the nonsense going on here !!!! LOL

The same was said of us as the first to ridicule the silly waftarded gushing over XRFacts as the "savior of the hobby" and those who initially questioned the Champagne Rune. It's fair to say that those at the shows are either buying or selling. Thus for the dealers/sellers, threads like this are as welcome as medical workers warning about VD are to brothel owners. Likewise, some buyers at shows simply want so bad to get a kool kamo fix that they don't want to hear it either, like the horned up John walking into the brothel wants to hear about how herpes is transmitted.

I place lesser weight upon the opinions of those who have a profit interest in their opinions. This is a good discussion for those who actually want to see all sides and an open debate. Those who don't like such discussions need not read them. There is also a screening tool which allows one to block certain member postings from view.

 

[capt14k]

Excellent analogy Hambone. If the dealers are upset and talking about this thread that is a good thing. Maybe they will start vetting their purchases more and will push fakes less.

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[mcorioles]

I saw that it was brushed but was it a combination of brush and scraping? I would think using just a brush the lines left behind would ybe more defined. Just curious.

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I believe some kind if cloth was used in that case,accounting for the rough edges,I don't see any scrapping.

 

[mcorioles]

Excellent analogy Hambone. If the dealers are upset and talking about this thread that is a good thing. Maybe they will start vetting their purchases more and will push fakes less.

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No dealers that I know are mad.

And IMO they don't contribute much on the forums.

I would say 80% or more of the opinions on GHW are from collectors with no agenda.

 

[capt14k]

I believe some kind if cloth was used in that case,accounting for the rough edges,I don't see any scrapping.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe painted with brush and then wiped with a cheese cloth?

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[capt14k]

No dealers that I know are mad.

And IMO they don't contribute much on the forums.

I would say 80% or more of the opinions on GHW are from collectors with no agenda.

Yes but all the dealers go to the forums. If this thread makes a few more careful or less shady then that is a good thing.

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[mcorioles]

Yes but all the dealers go to the forums. If this thread makes a few more careful or less shady then that is a good thing.

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I don't disagree with that.

We are all in this together.

 

[nirvana]

Yes but all the dealers go to the forums. If this thread makes a few more careful or less shady then that is a good thing.

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Agreed as well.

 

[Niblet]

Niblet BANNED from GHW2

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/et66-german-ww2-italian-camo-m42-helmet-shell-w

A replica turtle on Worthpoint. Looks pretty good. Not at all difficult to reproduce it appears. What if we started off with a fairly worn DD Luft M35 as our base, and then using some Afrika yellow paint, applied a turtle shell pattern, maybe copying a period photo ? After rattling around in our war chest for a few years, what would it look like ?

Well apparently I was Banned from GHW2 today for continuing to question some exotic Camos that were being posted
This one was the last one I spoke about and was banned for inquiring simply of its origin.
My question that the owner of the helmet refused to answer is: WAS There a dealer involved somewhere in the chain of custody?
with this helmet and the others?
And for that i was banned,,,so much for "discussion" I guess the true purpose of GHW2 is somewhat like WAF,,,glorifying
the collections of some and squelching ANY and ALL debate about helmets the unwashed masses have given "thumbs up to"

I was a member there for over 8 yrs,,,one of the last forums I still carried my original screename on (German Daggers.com is the only other forum I have been on as long and I still have my original name there as well)
apparently I was warned 4 yrs ago for something or another and they used that in addition with my questiioning the unquestionable to Ban me,,,,

 

[Hambone]

No dealers that I know are mad.

And IMO they don't contribute much on the forums.

I would say 80% or more of the opinions on GHW are from collectors with no agenda.

It's tough to put everything on "dealers". Without dealers we would have a hard time putting together collections. And, most of us in this have horse-traded and acted as dealers. I used to run ads and do motel buys, set up at shows, sell, trade, etc. Every person engaged in actively selling camos has bought a fake or three, and sold them too. The question becomes whether they are doing so knowingly (aka, fraud). My point was that I am quite sure that at the point of sale, at a show, threads like this are about as welcome as a health inspector at a cat house.

 

[Warrior1354]

I have too agree too that I have seen good deals and bad deals at shows over the years. Seems like at some of these shows dealers can get pretty rude too each other. It was just this Spring a dealer tried bumping in on a deal with me and a possible seller that came in. That guy has a reputation for that and if he could get me thrown out he would.

At the end of day its just a money game too some like with anything. As for me I have morals and try extremely hard too maintain a great reputation.

 

[mauser99]

Excellent analogy Hambone. If the dealers are upset and talking about this thread that is a good thing. Maybe they will start vetting their purchases more and will push fakes less.

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None of them were dealers they are members that read this thread for fun ! You guys think I give a rats a$$ about any dealers ???? I set up at one show to hang out and talk guns and hardly consider myself a dealer. Most of the guys just read here and rarely post and are older guys..

Reading this thread has become like a blood sport...LOL Or the rockem-sockem-robots analogy. I was amazed how many guys read it for entertainment.

 

[Player11]

I dont think dealers will come to this discussion since they, it seems, not to be interested in M45´s opinions, something i do really understand it. Im not also, just i have found it funny since the moment he only says banals arguements.

BtW, two pages of this " questionable" thread without M45 replies??!! is curious, when he is put between the sword and the wall he dissapears for some days until the danger is gone, and will appears posting another " questionable camo" a true gentleman!!!!

 

[capt14k]

None of them were dealers they are members that read this thread for fun ! You guys think I give a rats a$$ about any dealers ???? I set up at one show to hang out and talk guns and hardly consider myself a dealer. Most of the guys just read here and rarely post and are older guys..

Reading this thread has become like a blood sport...LOL Or the rockem-sockem-robots analogy. I was amazed how many guys read it for entertainment.

Ok. So besides the sewing circles in all seriousness how was the Forks show? Last one I understand was terrible. Could be because Oaks show was same weekend last time. Curious if this time was better.

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[mauser99]

The Allentown show for the part is a great show.. Some dates are better than others. The spring and fall show the best. Winter show and mid summer not as good. Lots has to do with the weather. Like any show find or sell nothing it sucks. Sell one thing or find a gem Its the best show ever. I drive 5-1/2 hrs. to attend and do it over and over. Being in PA is a big plus. I drive from and through 4 commie states to get the land of the free. So to speak.

Then there's the company and friends made and making new ones. Bringing items to share and getting your paws on Real and bad camo's and items in general.

This weekend flew by even sunday ! John didn't have to crack his whip once..LOL John Lawson does a great job running that show and even he found a new toy !

As we all know un-touched k98's and k43's are getting harder and harder to find.. Saw a couple there though. Like most shows its a wash with axis handguns and daggers.. ect.

If you decide to attend drop me a line and we can get together. July is the next show.

 

[M45]

Those exotic Mediterranean turtle shell camos are extremely rare, I believe. A period photo of M38 para turtles in Italy in Germany's Combat Helmets 1933-1945 p.301.

One guy on GHW2 actually has one! And then, another guy has its TWIN! Miracles never cease to happen in the helmet world.

Decal shot shows a moderate to heavily worn decal with wear to decal and wear to factory blue gray paint. There is also wear in conjunction with both decal and factory paint as one would expect.

What I really do not see is any wear involving the tan camo paint in conjunction with factory paint and decal. This I would expect to see if the camo had been on this helmet for awhile.

One reason that could explain this is that the tan camo was applied much later, after the significat wear between decal and factory paint had occurred.

How late is 'much later' ? Considering how the hobby has been flooded with fake camos, some of which have been created some decades ago and have acquired some of their own age patina, and considering that the subject helmet is an extremely rare exotic camo apparently with no rock-solid vet provenance but dealer sourced, I believe the helmet falls into the 'questionable' category. : )

 

[Niblet]

Those exotic Mediterranean turtle shell camos are extremely rare, I believe. A period photo of M38 para turtles in Italy in Germany's Combat Helmets 1933-1945 p.301.

One guy on GHW2 actually has one! And then, another guy has its TWIN! Miracles never cease to happen in the helmet world.

Decal shot shows a moderate to heavily worn decal with wear to decal and wear to factory blue gray paint. There is also wear in conjunction with both decal and factory paint as one would expect.

What I really do not see is any wear involving the tan camo paint in conjunction with factory paint and decal. This I would expect to see if the camo had been on this helmet for awhile.

M-45, also the tan shows a nice crackling appearance due to being baked after painting
I looked at that decal and saw the same thing as you, hence my question of where did this helmet originate? I believe there is a dealer involved somewhere along the line
and I would be willing to bet the same with it's "twin",,,,are these guys really in denial? or just plain ignorant?

 

[M45]

Nibbler's, sorry to hear you were banned on GHW2. Just don't get yourself banned here :\ .

Is cracking only due to heat or can paint be shocked into cracking ? Or can paint have something added to it prior to application that will cause cracking ?

Those turtle shells are damn good and would fool any layperson, camo novice, all the way up to hardcore camo collector, IMO.

The reason I don't accept this stuff out of hand as I once did is due to the sad state of the helmet hobby and of militaria collecting in general. Camo collecting needs a good hard re-visit of those many 'treasures' that in the past have been accepted as authentic.

 

[mauser99]

Ok. So besides the sewing circles in all seriousness how was the Forks show? Last one I understand was terrible. Could be because Oaks show was same weekend last time. Curious if this time was better.

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As I said before none of this is really worth while unless you get out and see the world and go to shows and meet other collectors and examine items in the flesh.

Sitting behind the key board and judging is not really all its cracked up to be.... No different that sitting watching porn and never getting you D*ck wet. Not much fun really....

Cant stress enough the importance of getting out and see the real deal..... I had a great weekend didn't go online for 4 days..

 

[Niblet]

Nibbler's, sorry to hear you were banned on GHW2. Just don't get yourself banned here :\ .

Is cracking only due to heat or can paint be shocked into cracking ? Or can paint have something added to it prior to application that will cause cracking ?

Those turtle shells are damn good and would fool any layperson, camo novice, all the way up to hardcore camo collector, IMO.

The reason I don't accept this stuff out of hand as I once did is due to the sad state of the helmet hobby and of militaria collecting in general. Camo collecting needs a good hard re-visit of those many 'treasures' that in the past have been accepted as authentic.

Absolutely paint can be "cracked" or aged from several different process'. perhaps the application/additive of some type of chemical is more appropriate on this turtle shell one
I still think that provenance could tell us alot here, if all 3 of these camos I commented on came from the same dealer then I think you would have a slam dunk case.
but where o where does he source them from? it isnt a newspaper ad,,and its isnt a veteran,,,so where then?

Sadly I dont think there will ever be a re-visit of anything, the stakes are too high,,,too many people have invested too much....
I mean look what happens when you even mention something or simply ask a question? ya get banned,,,collectors dont want to hear it