Questionable Camos

[M45]

Are you dense? Read my response to Nibbles.I already knew what they were going to say when I posted them.AND if you did know anything about camos you would also know a accurate assesments can't be made from those pics.

- Not true in every case, and with questionable camos I can see that most are bad with clear digital photos. Just like you can see that Latvian camos are fake with photos alone (presumably).



They basically are trolls.

- How can I be a troll on my own thread ??



How do you explain every single one of them getting thumbs up with detailed pics on both WAF and GHW except the wire woodchip that got mixed reviews?

- I would consider most forum members novices when it comes to camos. Although I see signs of improvement, they still have a long way to go before they can spot things like high end fakes.



If you were going to buy anything and 50-60 people some with years of experience told you something was good and only 2 who didn't on this form who obviously are buddies , who would you believe? It's really just common sense

- What you just said does not guarantee authenticity, just like COAs do not guarantee authenticity.



BTW these positive opinions are given by many who own multiple camos they got directly.

These 2 own none.......yet they know what they are talking about.

This is why people have a problem.

- Back to the old, "And how many camos have YOU handled ??" We saw how bogus that line of thinking was with Champagne SS and now we know how bogus it is with camos.

 

[Frank F.]

Hambone I'm pretty sure is not a socialist. Nor will you find many here. Socialism is failure just like Communism. Socialism has destroyed Europe. The Democrats and RINOS tried their best to instill it here. Thankfully Trump has put a halt to it for now, but they will not stop trying. However they will have the fight of their lives on their hands. Myself and many like me will never let happen to America what has happened to Germany and other countries in Europe.

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Hambone I am pretty sure is a free thinker.

F.

 

[Frank F.]

Are you dense? Read my response to Nibbles.I already knew what they were going to say when I posted them.AND if you did know anything about camos you would also know a accurate assesments can't be made from those pics.

- Not true in every case, and with questionable camos I can see that most are bad with clear digital photos. Just like you can see that Latvian camos are fake with photos alone (presumably).



They basically are trolls.

- How can I be a troll on my own thread ??



How do you explain every single one of them getting thumbs up with detailed pics on both WAF and GHW except the wire woodchip that got mixed reviews?

- I would consider most forum members novices when it comes to camos. Although I see signs of improvement, they still have a long way to go before they can spot things like high end fakes.



If you were going to buy anything and 50-60 people some with years of experience told you something was good and only 2 who didn't on this form who obviously are buddies , who would you believe? It's really just common sense

- What you just said does not guarantee authenticity, just like COAs do not guarantee authenticity.



BTW these positive opinions are given by many who own multiple camos they got directly.

These 2 own none.......yet they know what they are talking about.

This is why people have a problem.

- Back to the old, "And how many camos have YOU handled ??" We saw how bogus that line of thinking was with Champagne SS and now we know how bogus it is with camos.

Brian:

You are fine. This thread has reached a larger audience and you are more scrutinized now. I thought that would be your goal.

F.

 

[jhv 41]

Maybe I am talking out of my butt here and hate to have to make a post like this on this thread. I think many have taken value from this thread's inception to use as a learning tool, hear constructive feedback and try to understand a very "iffy" area of 3R collectables.

Civil discourse allows all to view differing opinions and use our own common sense to learn. No one person can tell us what things were truly like 70+ years ago and how they may be today and that sums up the minefield.

I for one appreciate the differing viewpoints that have appeared on this thread as they had remained civil for most of the life up to recently.

I am saddened that recently it has evolved to a thread that appears should be moved to the Political Off Topic area - that is a shame.

I for one. hope this thread can move back closer to a learning tool (one that everyone may not agree with). Just my 2 cents.....

 

[Hambone]

Maybe I am talking out of my butt here and hate to have to make a post like this on this thread. I think many have taken value from this thread's inception to use as a learning tool, hear constructive feedback and try to understand a very "iffy" area of 3R collectables.

Civil discourse allows all to view differing opinions and use our own common sense to learn. No one person can tell us what things were truly like 70+ years ago and how they may be today and that sums up the minefield.

I for one appreciate the differing viewpoints that have appeared on this thread as they had remained civil for most of the life up to recently.

I am saddened that recently it has evolved to a thread that appears should be moved to the Political Off Topic area - that is a shame.

I for one. hope this thread can move back closer to a learning tool (one that everyone may not agree with). Just my 2 cents.....

Well said Jhv, and you consistently set a high standard for attachments. I'm going to have to agree and from this point on, personal insult ad hominem and politics will be moved to Infernus where I'll establish the "Krazy Kamo Rock-Em Sock-Em Robots" thread where y'all can go at it. The first I send there will get an appropriate avatar for 30 days. The second I send there will too. Note that this will be "ref rule", so I'm not investigating, just penalty boxing the first I catch. Thank you. BTW, I got a little moist eyed as I remember that commercial and my boxing robots Xmas when I was like 6.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

I agree jhv 41 I shouldn't have replied to the socialist comment, but I really don't like socialists and what they have done to Europe and are trying to do here.

I wish the "experts" that disagree with M45 would offer their opinions and why something is good, but player11 has said more than once he won't share. Maybe McOrioles will. That is how others can really learn.

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capt14k- there have been good pointers given by both sides in this thread, unfortunately buried in 200 pages of bloviating and arguing. M45 has made some well thought out points after obviously viewing many helmets, some of which i think are valid. However, I think potentially the most dangerous thing here is 2 people who admittedly own no camo's claiming that hands-on are not necessary.

I would tell you a hands on is the most important thing in helmet collecting. I started with guns and 98's first so it was hard for me to understand until i got into it. Helmets are much more of an art (with much less rigid rules when it comes to use, paint color, texture, application, etc after the factory....which is why saying EVERY camo must show the same hard use and the same wear patterns is insanity). There are definitely "rules" and guiding principles, its not a free for all, but many decisions have to be made based on gut and experience. This goes ESPECIALLY for camo's and non "from the factory" helmets.

I guess what I'm saying is I think you will find it tough to gain experience and confidence with helmets solely by seeing pictures and reading a thread (particularly where every single camo is called fake). Some pointers in here are great, and we have some excellent lid collectors here, but IMO a big part is getting hands on (much more so than with guns).

 

[M45]

You've brought up some good points. A hands-on inspection is certainly desirable if possible when purchasing helmets. But how many online militaria customers actually get the privilege of a hands-on inspection prior to purchase ? Very few. Customers depend on good clear digital photos and most dealers/sellers and online auctions understand this. Clear digital photos can reveal what is going on with helmets. I would say that the vast majority of helmet sales are via online with comparatively few hands-on inspections prior, such as at shows or shops.

I've been purchasing online for years and clear digital photos are sufficient in most cases for me to see exactly what I'm buying. If I demanded a hands-on for every purchase, I would have very few helmets. Digital photos are sufficient in most online sales.

Digital photos also reveal what is going on with many camos as well, IMO. They can reveal the characteristics of original and faked camos which I have been attempting to point out for the past 200 pages.

Some camos can be revealed as fake with ease. Some originals can be revealed as such with ease. Others require a hands-on to confirm. But not every camo requires a hands-on to confirm.

The opposition is basically saying that their 3 color Normandy/woodchip/ghosted wire/net etc.. etc... helmets all require a hands-on inspection to confirm. But since that is quite impossible for me to do a hands-on, then I have no business trashing them at all. They are saying that it is impossible for me to determine authenticity by digital photos alone.

Of course I disagree.

You add up all of the red flags, then you make a determination. Remember, Kelly Hicks offers authentication services by digital photos alone. I don't recall anyone complaining about that prior to the C-SS debacle.

 

[capt14k]

Bigdibbs88 I understand your point about hands on. I also think M45 answered it well. Hands on is ideal, but being in NJ the majority of my purchases have been made with just photos. I would much rather handle every purchase in person but it just isn't possible. The best scenario is photos then a 3 day in hand inspection period. I have yet to return a purchase.

I find this thread interesting and if I were to ever buy Camo Helmets I would avoid the questionable and stick to the near sure things and even then only with an inspection period. Yes I may pass on some good ones but I would rather miss one than spend thousands on a fake.

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[mcorioles]

Bigdibbs88 I understand your point about hands on. I also think M45 answered it well. Hands on is ideal, but being in NJ the majority of my purchases have been made with just photos. I would much rather handle every purchase in person but it just isn't possible. The best scenario is photos then a 3 day in hand inspection period. I have yet to return a purchase.

I find this thread interesting and if I were to ever buy Camo Helmets I would avoid the questionable and stick to the near sure things and even then only with an inspection period. Yes I may pass on some good ones but I would rather miss one than spend thousands on a fake.

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Go to GHW if you want real analysis.They will tell you if your purchase is legit.Especially if you buy a nice one because they are all bad here.....

If you want my analysis go there also.I hundreds of posts as well as many others that have detailed analysis.

You will also see detailed pics of the helmets I posted here that the 2 goofs said were bad by 1 photo.

Laughable.

 

[mcorioles]

The problem here is M45 somehow knows more than hundreds of posters at GHW about camos.People that actually own some.

His "analysis" is cookie cutter and based soely on his opinion on things he can't possibly know.
Like solders did this and that,?

Really?

Still no legit answer as to why we have so many non camos in collections that look pristine but camos can't be or they are fake?

See what I mean?


You will also see a totally different attitude from me on there because I know a lot of posters there know their stuff.

 

[capt14k]

Go to GHW if you want real analysis.They will tell you if your purchase is legit.Especially if you buy a nice one because they are all bad here.....

If you want my analysis go there also.I hundreds of posts as well as many others that have detailed analysis.

You will also see detailed pics of the helmets I posted here that the 2 goofs said were bad by 1 photo.

Laughable.

Their site isn't tapatalk friendly. Why not post all the pics and your analysis here? If you are not willing to do so why even come here? You called M45 a troll on his thread, but your refusal to participate in a normal manner in the thread would make you the troll not he.

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[M45]

I think it is fair to state that camo helmets are in a class distinct from factory issue branch helmets. Many factory issue helmets have been found in near unissued condition; DDs, SDs, NDs. Why ? Apparently because factory helmets were stored at depots until needed. Just like all kinds of other German equipment found in unissued condition. Depots were captured and new equipment distributed as war booty.

Camos were field modified helmets, not created in helmet factories and not stored in depots. These were already issued helmets that individual soldiers modified or were unit modified. A minty camo really does not make much sense.

The problem here is M45 somehow knows more than hundreds of posters at GHW about camos.People that actually own some.

His "analysis" is cookie cutter and based soely on his opinion on things he can't possibly know.
Like solders did this and that,?

Really?

Still no legit answer as to why we have so many non camos in collections that look pristine but camos can't be or they are fake?

See what I mean?

You will also see a totally different attitude from me on there because I know a lot of posters there know their stuff.

I addressed that issue previously. In this case I don't think you can really compare factory issued helmets and camos in reference to minty conditions. So you're saying that because minty factory issue helmets are out there, it stands to reason that minty camos should be out there as well ? That is another one of those 'collector myths'.

Minty factory issue helmets were stored at depots awaiting distribution along with other equipment. It stands to reason that minty factory helmets would be found in such places after capture.

Camos conversely, were field modified issued helmets. They were camoed in the field and worn in the field under field conditions. Field wear can take a toll on the finish of helmets. This has been seen to the extreme with most of the camo worn off the crowns of some examples.

The idea of a 'minty camo' does not fit this scenario. I believe most of the exotic freshies with striking contrasting patterns, multiple bright colors and media (woodships/concrete, etc...) often with wire/nets or ghosted with near 100% of camo remaining despite heavily worn vents and rims are the products of creative postwar artists out to cheat unknowing camo collectors.

Note these authentic examples. Some are more heavily worn than others, but even those with most of their camo intact still show well worn finishes. Remember, these were COMBAT helmets, not rare commemorative china wear. They were not treated like collectors treat their collectible helmets today.

No bright vibrant tiger stripes, no wild SS polka dots or heart shapes, no fancy normandy/woodchip/wire/net/ghosted insanity. Pretty BLAH really. They are just trying to hide, not impress camo collectors : )

 

[mcorioles]

Their site isn't tapatalk friendly. Why not post all the pics and your analysis here? If you are not willing to do so why even come here? You called M45 a troll on his thread, but your refusal to participate in a normal manner in the thread would make you the troll not he.

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The helmets speak for themselves and I have literally hundreds of thumbs up.

I don't need to prove anything here.

Why does it matter if it's tap talk friendly?

I've given plenty of reasons he's wrong, you're not listening.

BTW Player 11 is extremely knowledgeable and has saved me personally twice.

Again common sense should tell you 2 thumbs down here and literally hundreds of thumbs up elsewhere tell all that is needed.

Unless you think published authors and many with 30-40 years experience who actually OWN CAMOS are all wrong and 2 on here who own 0 CAMOS and 1 who says "hands on" isn't needed.

It's not rocket science to see what's going on.

 

[mcorioles]

I addressed that issue previously. In this case I don't think you can really compare factory issued helmets and camos in reference to minty conditions. So you're saying that because minty factory issue helmets are out there, it stands to reason that minty camos should be out there as well ? That is another one of those 'collector myths'.

Minty factory issue helmets were stored at depots awaiting distribution along with other equipment. It stands to reason that minty factory helmets would be found in such places after capture.

Camos conversely, were field modified issued helmets. They were camoed in the field and worn in the field under field conditions. Field wear can take a toll on the finish of helmets. This has been seen to the extreme with most of the camo worn off the crowns of some examples.

The idea of a 'minty camo' does not fit this scenario. I believe most of the exotic freshies with striking contrasting patters, multiple bright colors and media (woodships/concrete, etc...) often with wire/nets or ghosted with near 100% of camo remaining despite heavily worn vents and rims are the products of creative postwar artists out to cheat unknowing camo collectors.

And like you were told earlier.A poster here said he talked to a vet and it was common for non combat troops to Camo their helmets because they thought it was cool.

Another theory of yours evaporates.

And once again your last paragraph is pure conjecture, like most of your observations sorry.

At GHW we talk about the actual helmet, not stories or what we think troops have done.

 

[M45]

And like you were told earlier.A poster here said he talked to a vet and it was common for non combat troops to Camo their helmets because they thought it was cool.

Fine, fine. But you must realize that even those 'non-combat' troops put wear and tear on the helmets regardless. Look at that red cross medic helmet, for instance. A medic is essentially a non-combat soldier, not primarily there to fight but to treat wounded. Look how much wear is on that 'non-combat' medic helmet.

 

[Niblet]

And like you were told earlier.A poster here said he talked to a vet and it was common for non combat troops to Camo their helmets because they thought it was cool.

Another theory of yours evaporates.

And once again your last paragraph is pure conjecture, like most of your observations sorry.

At GHW we talk about the actual helmet, not stories or what we think troops have done.

If said i was an alternate on an Apollo mission does that mean I was?
so "a collector" says he "talked" to a vet,,now we have a plausible theory for minty camo helmets? are you kidding me?

 

[ZF41 K98k]

If said i was an alternate on an Apollo mission does that mean I was?
so "a collector" says he "talked" to a vet,,now we have a plausible theory for minty camo helmets? are you kidding me?

That's just one theory out of many plausible ones - but you seem to be suggesting that, fundamentally, camos cannot be minty?!? I would love to hear the theory behind that one...

 

[mcorioles]

If said i was an alternate on an Apollo mission does that mean I was?
so "a collector" says he "talked" to a vet,,now we have a plausible theory for minty camo helmets? are you kidding me?

Apply your logic to all of your buddies statements on soldiers.

Gotcha again.

 

[mcorioles]

I addressed that issue previously. In this case I don't think you can really compare factory issued helmets and camos in reference to minty conditions. So you're saying that because minty factory issue helmets are out there, it stands to reason that minty camos should be out there as well ? That is another one of those 'collector myths'.

Minty factory issue helmets were stored at depots awaiting distribution along with other equipment. It stands to reason that minty factory helmets would be found in such places after capture.

Camos conversely, were field modified issued helmets. They were camoed in the field and worn in the field under field conditions. Field wear can take a toll on the finish of helmets. This has been seen to the extreme with most of the camo worn off the crowns of some examples.

The idea of a 'minty camo' does not fit this scenario. I believe most of the exotic freshies with striking contrasting patters, multiple bright colors and media (woodships/concrete, etc...) often with wire/nets or ghosted with near 100% of camo remaining despite heavily worn vents and rims are the products of creative postwar artists out to cheat unknowing camo collectors.

Note these authentic examples. Some are more heavily worn than others, but even those with most of their camo intact still show well worn finishes. Remember, these were COMBAT helmets, not rare commemorative china wear. They were not treated like collectors treat their collectible helmets today.

No bright vibrant tiger stripes, no wild SS polka dots or heart shapes, no fancy normandy/woodchip/wire/net/ghosted insanity. Pretty BLAH really. They are just trying to hide, not impress camo collectors : )

And? So again soely your opinion should be taken as gospel.

I can post pics of different camos too that are real and not all are drab.

Do me a favor and look at some period pics from Market Garden of German Camos.

Tiger stripe camos at shown.Hell, there's period pics of a lid with leaf patterns.

If there wasn't photographic evidence Iwouldnt believe it either.....but they exist.

 

[M45]

Here's a rule of thumb I would recommend to camo collectors:

- Does the camo jump out at you, trying to get your attention, trying to impress you ? There's a good chance that it's a postwar creation.

- Does the camo sit there unassuming, trying to blend in, trying to hide, is unimpressive and quite bland, something you might well pass over at a show or shop not realizing it even is a camo ?

That is what you really want to see (assuming you are in the market for originals).