DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[M45]

I know it's all there, but what isn't clear is the timeline of his opinion evolution pertaining to the CSS lid. Doug B was a believer in XRF lid testing and the CSS lid, but he evolved out of those beliefs based on learning. Like everyone, Doug B has a learning curve and he's progressed to the point that he knows the faults in those early beliefs and changed his opinions.

What do you mean, you're not clear about the timeline ? Each post is date and time stamped. DougB did change and evolve, like a 180 degree flip-flop !

Remember that Doug was fighting like hell all serious resistance to C-SS in the early days. Walter B. would offer a great counter to C-SS authenticity, and Doug would bury him under a pile of B.S. and meaningless words.

He would confront people like myself just trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. I found myself angrily confronted (with profanity) had my posts sensored and removed as if he was telling me "KNOCK IT OFF, OR YOU'LL BE GONE!" And guess what? I was banned by Doug TWICE !

That doesn't sound like any objective researcher that I've ever encountered.

 

[tjg79]

What do you mean, you're not clear about the timeline ? Each post is date and time stamped. DougB did change and evolve, like a 180 degree flip-flop !

Remember that Doug was fighting like hell all serious resistance to C-SS in the early days. Walter B. would offer a great counter to C-SS authenticity, and Doug would bury him under a pile of B.S. and meaningless words.

He would confront people like myself just trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. I found myself angrily confronted (with profanity) had my posts sensored and removed as if he was telling me "KNOCK IT OFF, OR YOU'LL BE GONE!" And guess what I was banned by Doug TWICE !

Yes, you and Walter B were arguing against the legitimacy of the CSS lid when Doug B was defending them, but he changed his opinion based on the evidence. Your lot number study was strong evidence of the CSS lids being fakes. Doug B was slow to get on board, but he did get on board and provided additional evidence that they are all fakes. I have to give Doug B some credit for changing his opinion. If everyone would change their opinions based on evidence and facts, we'd be a lot further along. Changing your opinion based on evidence is a good thing. It's the scientific method in action.

 

[Hambone]

I know it's all there, but what isn't clear is the timeline of his opinion evolution pertaining to the CSS lid. Doug B was a believer in XRF lid testing and the CSS lid, but he evolved out of those beliefs based on learning. Like everyone, Doug B has a learning curve and he's progressed to the point that he knows the faults in those early beliefs and changed his opinions.

This. He gets much credit from me and me and Tjg had significant disagreements with him and his positions on XRFacts. However, he was man enough to recognize that we were correct and he credited the site and came here directly to say that and dispute Maui David May's various "defenses" of XRFacts. That takes a stand up guy to do that. I see his same progression with the CRSS, which was about the same time as the XRFacts realizations.

Look, you're a respected and well thought of member here. I know there is some history there, indeed I have history with certain actors who I still dislike. However, none of those actors has ever admitted they were mistaken, reached out, or corrected the record. DougB literally and officially blew the lid off the CRSS fraud AND confirmed its connection with XRFacts, which further debunked that. Until then, we did not have a direct connection between these two things. We were simply wondering why Kelly Hicks was such a supporter of XRFacts when it was so evidently flawed. As a result of DougB, we were able to sort that mystery out. I'm not attributing fault to DougB and I'm giving him much credit for exposing this, at great cost. He could have easily sold all of his lids and not taken a beating on his CRSS lids and rode off into the sunset as a hero of the Lid GOBs. But he didn't, and logically that to me negates bad intent. I would equally defend your contributions.
Regards,
HB

 

[M45]

Yes, you and Walter B were arguing against the legitimacy of the CSS lid when Doug B was defending them, but he changed his opinion based on the evidence. Your lot number study was strong evidence of the CSS lids being fakes. Doug B was slow to get on board, but he did get on board and provided additional evidence that they are all fakes. I have to give Doug B some credit for changing his opinion. If everyone would change their opinions based on evidence and facts, we'd be a lot further along. Changing your opinion based on evidence is a good thing. It's the scientific method in action.

I think Doug very gradually changed his opinion about C-SS because he started to see the tide was turning with collector acceptance of C-SS. It was all about what collectors were starting to think about C-SS, not what he thought about it. The lot# book was showing that C-SS did not fit with any manufacturer's decal application patterns. Doug had always been hostile toward the lot# book (with only one or two exceptions right near the end - more or less forced admissions to save face). The lot# book IMO broke general acceptance of C-SS and broke Doug and Kelly's grand plan for widespread C-SS acceptance. He was afraid of being caught on the wrong side of the issue once the smoke cleared. I think one of Doug's greatest fears was having someone else expose C-SS as a template spray painted fake before he could. If that had happened, he would have been left on the wrong side of the tracks without any redemption whatsoever. That's why, after reading the lot# book (presumably) and realizing the C-SS game was over, he suddenly had this great 'revelation' about what C-SS really was, seeing fine details that he NEVER SAW BEFORE.

 

[tjg79]

What's important is where we are today; what the known facts and evidence indicate today. What we know today could change tomorrow based on new facts and evidence. New facts could change opinions on the CSS lids. If they dig up a crate of CSS lids with legit CSS decals with the Nazi gold train, then I'll have to change my opinion based on the evidence. As of today, I believe they are all spray-job fakes based on Doug B's investigation. Before that, I thought they were post war fakes based on the lot number study. Before that I thought they were legit, because most of the forum posts seems to think they were legit. If I change my opinion based on facts, then I've gotten smarter. I don't see the point in dredging up old posts that show former opinions unless the issue is that someone's opinion has never changed. Doug B admits that he was wrong and changed his opinion on XRF lid testing and the CSS lid. He's acknowledged it on this forum. I think he gets a lot of credit for being a big man and admitting that he was initially wrong on the CSS lid and XRF lid testing. Therefore, his former opinions are mute. Additionally, he's contributed to the lid collecting community knowledge base with his CSS insignia investigation. Also, he apologized to you about what has happened between the two of you in the past. I don't see the point in continuing to beat that dead horse. Yes, some dead horses require additional beatings. XRF lid testing comes to mind. But, Doug B has apologized and admitted he was wrong and changed his opinion. What more is there for him to do to rehabilitate his reputation?

 

[M45]

What's important is where we are today; what the known facts and evidence indicate today. What we know today could change tomorrow based on new facts and evidence. New facts could change opinions on the CSS lids. If they dig up a crate of CSS lids with legit CSS decals with the Nazi gold train, then I'll have to change my opinion based on the evidence. As of today, I believe they are all spray-job fakes. If I change my opinion based on facts, then I've gotten smarter. I don't see the point in dredging up old posts that show former opinions unless the issue is that someone's opinion has never changed. Doug B admits that he was wrong and changed his opinion on XRF lid testing and the CSS lid. He's acknowledged it on this forum. I think he gets a lot of credit for being a big man and admitting that he was initially wrong on the CSS lid and XRF lid testing. Therefore, his former opinions are mute. Additionally, he's contributed to the lid collecting community knowledge base with his CSS insignia investigation. Also, he apologized to you about what has happened between the two of you in the past. I don't see the point in continuing to beat that dead horse. Yes, some dead horses require additional beatings. XRF lid testing comes to mind. But, Doug B has apologized and admitted he was wrong and changed his opinion. What more is there for him to do to rehabilitate his reputation?

Therefore, his former opinions are mute.
No dice, amigo; not for investigators.

Also, he apologized to you about what has happened between the two of you in the past.
He should have reinstated me with full member privileges if he was serious (he was ADMIN). It was all just for show.

Additionally, he's contributed to the lid collecting community knowledge base with his CSS insignia investigation.
That's all been null and voided by him on GHW.

What more is there for him to do to rehabilitate his reputation?
Doug just ripped the heart out of the gaudammed GHW forum !!! Rehabilitate what ???

 

[Hambone]

Therefore, his former opinions are mute.
No dice, amigo; not for investigators.

Also, he apologized to you about what has happened between the two of you in the past.
He should have reinstated me with full member privileges if he was serious (he was ADMIN). It was all just for show.

Additionally, he's contributed to the lid collecting community knowledge base with his CSS insignia investigation.
That's all been null and voided by him on GHW.

What more is there for him to do to rehabilitate his reputation?
Doug just ripped the heart out of the gaudammed GHW forum !!! Rehabilitate what ???

The intellectual property on the site belonged to him and the study is going to be published. The pictures and info belong here to the members who created them. If he had connections or problems why would he blow the lid off and not just let it be? He certainly could have saved himself time, money, a refund on a CRSS and being stuck with a couple of them. I don't see the motive or rationale for your position.

 

[tjg79]

Hi guys I just popped in and read oh I don't know, half (?) of the thread. I know the thread I created is only available on GHW2 for members and is a massive read, more like a small book than a normal thread so if anyone had questions I can answer them.

The article will be recreated on a website I plan on doing in the (hopefully near) future once I get some work out of the way and I have had offers for publication in a mainstream Militaria magazine and in 2 books that are being worked on by others, so it will be widely available on a number of platforms for those that do not want to join the forum.

I do want to apologize to the forum as in my original article I acknowledged Gunboards as the bulwark on which XRF crashed and as I am not a member of either that forum or normally post here and not a gun guy, I mixed the two up which I immediately corrected once I was told about it.

I also credit the lot number book of Brians in the article. I did use this in my research along with my own lot number research I've compiled on lot numbers specific to SS helmets and was valuable indeed.

I know I was a proponent of the CH "decals" at one time, under the spell of publication and personality. How could they be bad if the world's most foremost expert says they are good??? However experience is a valuable teacher and I could not ignore the mounting evidence against them despite what was written in books. There are many now who are saying the same thing, how can this be!? (Not here I know...) That said, COAs on bad helmets, XRF nonsense, and other published fakes told me the level of knowledge was not unassailable and....well, I will leave it at that. Let's just say I was asked to keep thing on the QT when I found some bad blessed helmets out there. It was just not ethically correct.

Then came ZAMs thread which was an eye opener for me along with an off the record conversation that occurred at an SOS a few years back with a respected collector. So it was then about 3-4 years ago I decided I simply needed to find out for myself if these were all real or all bad as I was told in this conversation. I wasn't going to take anyone's word but my own, as I did with XRF over time (which is unmitigated bullsh1t).

Buying Brians great lot number book was part of what I needed to move this forward but the most difficult part was getting collectors to send me their examples. Without them making a public case against them that was open and shut was impossible.

Anyway a bit of background as I've read a bit of speculation about this or that but as I've said I'm happy to answer any questions.

Doug

PS Brian I know you and I have crossed swords in the past which I attribute to a clash of personalities. I apologize for any transgressions of mine on the past, and hope we can consider it as water under the bridge. You've done some fine work and I freely admit I was wrong on a number of counts. Hope we can move on with respect.

What more is there for him to say?

 

[M45]

The intellectual property on the site belonged to him and the study is going to be published. The pictures and info belong here to the members who created them. If he had connections or problems why would he blow the lid off and not just let it be? He certainly could have saved himself time, money, a refund on a CRSS and being stuck with a couple of them. I don't see the motive or rationale for your position.

I told you already, Hambone. Doug's angry resistance to serious C-SS criticisms initially via lot# research showed that his grand plan was being threatened, and he didn't like it at all. The grand plan was the widespread acceptance of C-SS as authentic. While E.D. created C-SS, it was only when Kelly H. manufactured C-SS "authenticity" with his books (photos, descriptions as authentic) and promoters like DougB began touting them as "textbook" on helmet forums did the wider collecting community become aware of them, with many poor souls actually purchasing them.

Once Doug realized that C-SS was a dead end, he had his 'revelation' and found all of these problems with it that he had 'never seen' years before. He "blew the lid off" (your description, not mine) and spent his money because he was between a rock and a hard place. If he had remained in the C-SS camp, the tidal wave of evidence against it would have made him irrelevant in the collecting community. He would have been seen as grossly incompetent. For him to stay relevant (and thus a hero in the eyes of many) he had to "expose" C-SS and finally come clean with what he had seen all of those years previously.

 

[tjg79]

I told you already, Hambone. Doug's angry resistance to serious C-SS criticisms initially via lot# research showed that his grand plan was being threatened, and he didn't like it at all. The grand plan was the widespread acceptance of C-SS as authentic. While E.D. created C-SS, it was only when Kelly H. manufactured C-SS "authenticity" with his books (photos, descriptions as authentic) and promoters like DougB began touting them as authentic on helmet forums did the wider collecting community become aware of them, with many poor souls actually purchasing them.

Once Doug realized that C-SS was a dead end, he had his 'revelation' and found all of these problems with it that he had 'never seen' years before. He "blew the lid off" (your description, not mine) and spent his money because he was between a rock and a hard place. If he had remained in the C-SS camp, the tidal wave of evidence against it would have made him irrelevant in the collecting community. He would have been seen as grossly incompetent. For him to stay relevant (and thus a hero in the eyes of many) he had to "expose" C-SS and finally come clean with what he had seen all of those years previously.

Where are the posts that support these theories?

1. Doug B's "Grand Plan."
2. Doug B as "Promoter." Promoter for what? I think he was just a deep pocket collector that enjoyed acquiring lids, to include CSS lids.

There seems to be a good bit of speculation as to Doug B's intentions and motivations. Where are the posts that show these intentions and motivations?

My impression is that Doug B believed in his reference books until he started to investigate the reference book claims and attempted to reconcile reference book info with forum information and hands-on examinations.

 

[Hambone]

I'm with tjg's analysis of this because that is what I've seen and what is supported by the evidence I've seen.

 

[tjg79]

I get the impression that there's a visceral animosity on one persons part over past disputes that won't heal in spite of Doug B admitting he was wrong and apologizing. Doug B is not promoting CSS lids as legit or endorsing XRF lid testing. I don't see the point of attacking him for his previous outdated opinions. Doug B admitted that M45 was correct on the CSS lid issue and the lot number study was good work.

What we need to know is who are the GOB lid collectors at odds with Doug B over his disclosures and what are they alleging to smear Doug B? What exchange, and with whom, caused Doug B to quit the GHW2 forum so completely? Can the lid hobby clean up its mess, and recover to something as respectable as K98k collecting?

 

[M45]

Where are the posts that support these theories?

1. Doug B's "Grand Plan."
2. Doug B as "Promoter." Promoter for what? I think he was just a deep pocket collector that enjoyed acquiring lids, to include CSS lids.

There seems to be a good bit of speculation as to Doug B's intentions and motivations. Where are the posts that show these intentions and motivations?

My impression is that Doug B believed in his reference books until he started to investigate the reference book claims and attempted to reconcile reference book info with forum information and hands-on examinations.

Hmmmmmm...... tjg, you are not going to find posts of anyone mentioning a "Grand Plan" other than myself. That is my own term for this whole C-SS mess.

DougB promoted the authenticity of C-SS by his numerous posts describing it as "textbook". Once the term 'champagne' became a dirty word, he said that he preferred to call it the 'NS-SS decal', obviously to attempt to maintain legitimacy. (Notice that he repeatedly referred to C-SS as a "decal" even though he was looking at it under magnification, the same C-SS we saw in the 'Mythbusting' thread that showed all of its painted faults so clearly.)

If you go back and re-read this thread with all of the DougB's posts as I asked, you will find much of what you are looking for.

Doug was a gung-ho supporter of Kelly's books, no doubt about that. He only conducted his 'investigations' after the lot# book showed him that the game was over for C-SS

 

[M45]

I get the impression that there's a visceral animosity on one persons part over past disputes that won't heal in spite of Doug B admitting he was wrong and apologizing. Doug B is not promoting CSS lids as legit or endorsing XRF lid testing. I don't see the point of attacking him for his previous outdated opinions. Doug B admitted that M45 was correct on the CSS lid issue and the lot number study was good work.

What we need to know is who are the GOB lid collectors at odds with Doug B over his disclosures and what are they alleging to smear Doug B? What exchange, and with whom, caused Doug B to quit the GHW2 forum so completely? Can the lid hobby clean up its mess, and recover to something as respectable as K98k collecting?

There you go again playing 'councilor' trying to heal the 'animosity'. We've been through why he apologized and how it was for show and why he admitted the lot# book was valid after bashing it all those years (a forced admission to save face).

DougB likely erased all of his posts and left because he figured he would get while the getting was good. There were too many incriminating statements of his that he has NEVER answered for.

 

[Hambone]

The "answers" the hobby needs are who made these and who was part of the trafficking and distribution of them.

 

[mauser99]

As far as I'm concerned go to the SOS or any other national or international so and look for big time dealers selling helmets. These are the G.O.B's you are all wanting to "out" or see.. Who else has a vested $$$$ only interest in this hobby. True collectors don't. We collect for the item only not what's its worth or could be worth. If you do you crossed the liner to dealership. Not saying that's a bad thing but, it's the first step to a road of $$ over items or ethics. Just saying.

 

[Hambone]

There is a certain amount of diligence necessary on the part of the buyer. Sell enough 3R trinkets and you'll sell fakes. That's a given, self evident, the way it is.

Mauser99 don't confuse that with what we are discussing. We are discussing the systematic creation of fakes sold for high dollar, $7000-24,000, issued COAs, specifically blessed by certain experts in books and on the www, and issued COAs which now are not honored. The issue we are addressing is who is culpable and involved. We are not speaking about the accidental or even winking sale of a fake infantry assault badge at a funshow.

 

[ebeeby]

There is a certain amount of diligence necessary on the part of the buyer. Sell enough 3R trinkets and you'll sell fakes. That's a given, self evident, the way it is.

Mauser99 don't confuse that with what we are discussing. We are discussing the systematic creation of fakes sold for high dollar, $7000-24,000, issued COAs, specifically blessed by certain experts in books and on the www, and issued COAs which now are not honored. The issue we are addressing is who is culpable and involved. We are not speaking about the accidental or even winking sale of a fake infantry assault badge at a funshow.

Yes - the heart of the matter: Who made the fakes and who first sold them into the collecting community?

 

[mauser99]

There is a certain amount of diligence necessary on the part of the buyer. Sell enough 3R trinkets and you'll sell fakes. That's a given, self evident, the way it is.

Mauser99 don't confuse that with what we are discussing. We are discussing the systematic creation of fakes sold for high dollar, $7000-24,000, issued COAs, specifically blessed by certain experts in books and on the www, and issued COAs which now are not honored. The issue we are addressing is who is culpable and involved. We are not speaking about the accidental or even winking sale of a fake infantry assault badge at a funshow.

Most large dealers issue COA's with their products. That's one of their selling points. Find out it's fake and get a refund. But, the question is if joe blow says it fake than who the hell is joe blow they say ???? That's the catch 22. Even when Doug took the knife to an 8k sham-pain ruin decal and proved it was fake a refund was not given. Im not sure what the grounds for the argument were ? I wasn't there. There is a damn good reason Hicks is standing his ground and it has lots of zeros in that reason. Back in the day his house would be surrounded with guys with torches and pitchforks and something would be done. But, those days are long gone. Now guys in suits do our bidding.

 

[Hambone]

If a dealer is not an intentional serial monger of fakes and honors a lifetime guarantee of authenticity he's a good dealer. That's far different from being in league with a lid humper and/or knowingly peddling $7500 airbrushed humpjobs as original, manipulating the knowledge base to do that, and refusing to honor COAs.