DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[Peter U]

This helmet was featured in a book, came with a COA of the dealer, perhaps it even came with a XRF pie chart from Maui and don't forget that it was praised on WAF.
What could be wrong with it?
...........


I'am not going to kick this guy when he is down neither and I think he should try to get his money back with the aid of the COA he purchased with this helmet.
But I also think this should be a lesson to all those buying (expensive) pieces of 3R militaria only based on the advice they got from others.
For years I have been writing on various forums that COA's for 3R militaria objects aren't worth the paper they are printed on and I was labeled as a trouble maker, bad for the hobby,....etc.
Will those that have written and endorced these COA get the same treatment on forums like WAF, get banned for life?
I once again doubt it.

 

[M45]

I think i had the wrong forum.

 

[tjg79]

Are you sure you've got the correct thread?

 

[tjg79]

You should start work on a forum thread number study. There could be a lot of fake posts out there.

 

[M45]

Some discussion on WAF about legal issues.

If the C-SS issue was about one type of decal vs. another, it would be a matter of he said-she said and a very difficult matter to pursue.

However, this is an issue about a painted on insignia that was never period produced, vs. the real insignia that was paid for. I think this issue may have some teeth to it, especially if victims get together and pool their resources.

An independent lab could verify this very easily.

 

[tjg79]

Well, we know of one C SS lid where the COA wasn't honored. From what I could understand, DB was refused his lifetime guarantee of authenticity by KH.

How many more will we hear about?

Is anyone going to pay KH $80.00 for a COA?

This could be interesting. If KH sells a lid with COA, do you get your money back? If KH sells someone a COA and they use that COA to sell their lid, and it comes back, what is KH liable for? If KH sell a COA before a purchase from a different seller, how does that work or affect KH?

 

[M45]

It's going to be a bad year for collecting, I suspect. I would think there will be droves leaving the hobby, not just over this, but over the tsunami of fake camos that have hit the market.

Weren't there several militaria experts on that Antiques Roadshow program that went to jail over fakery and forgery? Civil war swords were involved , if I recall.

 

[Hambone]

Oh, I don't think it so bad. The K98k side seems more solid than it's ever been. If the yokels and waftarded with more money than sense would get out of "camo" helmet collecting that would be just dandy. I could get back to picking up more of them.

I saw that legal debate on WAF. Seems like a few of them are really opposed to a fellow exercising his legal rights if a COA issuing dealer refuses refund. The truth is, that case could be tried in a day to a decent judge, maybe before a 1:00 pm lunch recess, so a half day. I read Willi Zahn talking about complex cases about divorce and who painted what in the museum, dueling expensive experts and what not, and that since everyone believed CRSS lids were real in the days BD (Before DougB), that that was a good defense. I guess we could call that the Pinnochio Defense, where the puppet and his pet cricket wished he was a boy for the whole two hour cartoon and at the end he became one. Sorry, but that was a cartoon and if the entire WAF membership scheduled a worldwide wishfest to turn spray paint into a real SS decal it ain't happening.

Depending on the COA, I'd hate to be the lawyer representing the COA issuer on that one.

 

[Hambone]

Well, we know of one C SS lid where the COA wasn't honored. From what I could understand, DB was refused his lifetime guarantee of authenticity by KH.

How many more will we hear about?

Is anyone going to pay KH $80.00 for a COA?

This could be interesting. If KH sells a lid with COA, do you get your money back? If KH sells someone a COA and they use that COA to sell their lid, and it comes back, what is KH liable for? If KH sell a COA before a purchase from a different seller, how does that work or affect KH?

Interesting questions. We'd start with the language of the COA. If KH sold the lid with the guarantee of originality for life and the COA, then the buyer should be able to prevail at trial for a refund of his purchase price. If the transaction was void ab initio, perhaps the buyer gets interest on his money. Winner would probably be awarded fees and costs, which could include the cost of expert testimony.

If KH sold the lid to B (buyer) and B sold the lid to B2, and the COA is a "bearer" COA, then B2 could go after KH for the price B2 paid based upon detrimental reliance upon KH's COA and of course, the language guaranteeing the lid as original. This would interesting.

If someone bought a lid and wanted a KH COA blessing after the fact, then that COA B1 may just get a refund for the cost of the COA. However, what of the second person, COA B2, who buys the airbrushed SS lid from B1 relying upon the KH COA to B1? Perhaps that COA B2 could go after KH for the price B2 paid justifiably relying upon KH's COA. If these COA's are put out there as guaranteeing originality to all who own the helmet, then KH intended to extend that warranty/reliance to remote purchasers.

The simplest case is the simple privity of B1 with KH who sold the helmet and COA with it.

These are all simply my opinions.

 

[tjg79]

Empire Arms advertised today an RC for $650.00. If guys will pay this price for an RC, then I don't think the market is going to take a hit unless it's a C SS lid or TR porcelain. Camo's are still in demand.

 

[nirvana]

As Hambone says, privity is going to be an issue here. What responsibility does KH have to make while the third or fourth owner of a helmet.

What's going to be interesting is when the names of dealers start coming out. Who is dishonoring their return policy? Who is going to pretend that an airbrushed helmet is original, and crap on the person that paid them $8500? When (if?) this information becomes public, a lot of people are going to be sore. Hopefully people have the sense to come forward and tell what they've experienced behind the scenes.

 

[Jim's Militaria]

It's going to be a bad year for collecting, I suspect. I would think there will be droves leaving the hobby, not just over this, but over the tsunami of fake camos that have hit the market.

Weren't there several militaria experts on that Antiques Roadshow program that went to jail over fakery and forgery? Civil war swords were involved , if I recall.

I don't think it will have much effect on the hobby but the C-SS helmet issue may make for a really interesting SOS.

 

[M45]

Jim, as a business man you realize that making a sale is only part of being in business. There are other factors like trustworthiness, dependability, offering a quality product for a fair price, good communications with your customers, striving to make the customer happy if there is an issue, honoring guarantees, giving customers the excellent service they have grown to expect, fast shipping, and so on.

Depending on how the C-SS debacle ultimately plays out, it could affect everyone in the hobby to one degree or another. It could even influence new potential collectors considering the hobby. If that potential new blood gets the feeling that everyone wants to rip them off, then why should they bother getting involved.

This all goes back to the idea of the hobby policing itself. If it does that, it will be a better hobby for everyone. My hat off to this forum for its open and honest character that promotes an atmosphere of learning. I could contrast this forum with others that have censored and banned members to promote an agenda.

Great website, by the way!

 

[M45]

If we cant handle our own hobby, then I could see how the government could. Official govt. 'authenticators' would use the latest technology to determine the authenticity of militiaria and then affix a permanent official, tamper-proof tag to the item. The expense would be borne by the sellers and ultimately by collectors, but I could see how collectors would begin to insist on this type of regulation to have peace of mind. Collectors would pass by miliitaria without the official tag and seek out that which has it. Fake items would lay unsold on show tables.

I see this method as popular with the many collectors who enjoy the hobby but have great difficulty telling real from fake.

 

[Hambone]

It looks to me like the wagons are being circled at WAF to stop any legal intrusion. What that would do would be to really shed a good bit of light on the subject. The discovery process, subpoena of records, receipts, inventory lists, contracts, payment and receipt information, tax reporting, and putting people under oath would be interesting. Heck, we may even find out the airbrushing source of the "Champagne rune" and the supply channels

 

[Peter U]

No lawyers allowed at waf!

 

[nirvana]

No lawyers allowed at waf!

-Your helmet can be traced to a veteran. That's going to make it hard to show that its fake. (Right....because someone who will spray paint a decal on wouldn't dream of writing a fake name or history to go along with it. Nor would they take an already named helmet and do their airbrush job.)

-Show me a case where someone has won a fraud claim! (really? really? I could find a dozen or two in 20 minutes if I cared. No one in US history has won a fraud case against a seller? Really?)

-A jury or judge couldn't understand these things. It won't work. (Juries can understand DNA testing. I'm sure they can figure out what spray paint is).

-It will cost a lot to pursue one of these cases. (one of these helmets sold for $25,000 a few years back. Someone won't spend another $5,000 to 10,000 to sue a dealer? Okay....)

-It will just be one expert arguing with another! (yea, that's how lawsuits work. The fact finders -a judge or jury - listen to both sides and see who they believe more. That's what a jury is for. Literally. Seriously.)

-No one will sympathize with either side. Its NAZZZZZZI stuff. (You'd be surprised what people win in lawsuits, or who juries feel "sympathy" for. Someone won money over hot coffee. By and large, the people I know that have served on juries do actually care about the cases they judge. Its not exactly a sympathy issue. They hear stuff out and take a vote.)

-A lawyer wouldn't take a case like this. (There are a lot of lawyers. Its a profession. They get paid with stuff called "money." If the case isn't a complete turd, SOMEONE will take it, so they can get this "money" stuff. Anyhow, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that someone out there would work a case like this for free, just because its bizarre, funny, and doesn't involve a whole lot of work.)

 

[tjg79]

If we cant handle our own hobby, then I could see how the government could. Official govt. 'authenticators' would use the latest technology to determine the authenticity of militiaria and then affix a permanent official, tamper-proof tag to the item. The expense would be borne by the sellers and ultimately by collectors, but I could see how collectors would begin to insist on this type of regulation to have peace of mind. Collectors would pass by miliitaria without the official tag and seek out that which has it. Fake items would lay unsold on show tables.

I see this method as popular with the many collectors who enjoy the hobby but have great difficulty telling real from fake.

The government will need contractors to implement this official authentication service for Third Reich militeria. The cost of contractors hiring part time militeria dealers as employees will create corruption which is typical government contracting practice. The end result is that fakes with permanent official taper-proof tags will be infiltrating the marketplace. Some of these contractor employees will have a background in "scientific testing" of lids. They will propose and the government will adopt an XRF test method to root out fakes. So, another government program will solve all our problems.

 

[Hambone]

-Your helmet can be traced to a veteran. That's going to make it hard to show that its fake. (Right....because someone who will spray paint a decal on wouldn't dream of writing a fake name or history to go along with it. Nor would they take an already named helmet and do their airbrush job.)

-Show me a case where someone has won a fraud claim! (really? really? I could find a dozen or two in 20 minutes if I cared. No one in US history has won a fraud case against a seller? Really?)

-A jury or judge couldn't understand these things. It won't work. (Juries can understand DNA testing. I'm sure they can figure out what spray paint is).

-It will cost a lot to pursue one of these cases. (one of these helmets sold for $25,000 a few years back. Someone won't spend another $5,000 to 10,000 to sue a dealer? Okay....)

-It will just be one expert arguing with another! (yea, that's how lawsuits work. The fact finders -a judge or jury - listen to both sides and see who they believe more. That's what a jury is for. Literally. Seriously.)

-No one will sympathize with either side. Its NAZZZZZZI stuff. (You'd be surprised what people win in lawsuits, or who juries feel "sympathy" for. Someone won money over hot coffee. By and large, the people I know that have served on juries do actually care about the cases they judge. Its not exactly a sympathy issue. They hear stuff out and take a vote.)

-A lawyer wouldn't take a case like this. (There are a lot of lawyers. Its a profession. They get paid with stuff called "money." If the case isn't a complete turd, SOMEONE will take it, so they can get this "money" stuff. Anyhow, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that someone out there would work a case like this for free, just because its bizarre, funny, and doesn't involve a whole lot of work.)

You should post this there. Those responses are ridiculous to the point that I'm embarrassed for those posting such naively imbecilic things. IMHO, the only thing I can think of to prompt such silliness would be a manic desire to not have litigation kicking over the rotten boards and exposing what is crawling under them, as it surely would.

BTW: You can see how the Great Champagne Rune Hoax and XRFacts went to the WAF helmet forum to be blessed and given credibility. IMHO, some of this is a matter of people far over their heads who don't know what they don't know, and are arrogant about it, or an agenda. The blithering nonsense identified by Nirvana would be excusable if from an outer space alien or a 7 year old.

 

[jhv 41]

Well, the code is cracked. Here is the faker of these helmets at work during the war. He is just plying his trade on other trinkets in this particular picture. (Picture from a Czech site).

Looks like the same type sprayer being used by the DAK soldat.....