A sniper rifle so rare that it might start a controversy :)

[pgaplayerlss]

Peter whom are the most senior knowledgeable members You are referring to that are disputing that the Czech Proofed Zeiss Optics and Snipers and Documentation does not exist . I know for a Fact that the Zeiss Czech Proofed Optics Exist . Not myself because I have one Complete Zeiss with LT Rings and had just a Scope lacking the Rings . I have 2 Very Knowledgeable Friends who Contacted Czech Archives when these Zeiss Scopes first came to be known . As for which Model Rifle they were mounted to I do not know if that fact was known . but if You have Documentation that mentions that Fact ,maybe You would share that here . If not I will ask Stana or maybe my 2 other friends if they have that Documentation they would share . Best Regards

In regards to the IOR VZ24 Sniper at least NOW there is a Period Photo that Proves they were manufactured , but it seems they are Romanian from Heading of Auction and the other weapons seems to help prove that is correct . Who made the VZ24 Snipers though , Czechs or Romanian ?
From the Photo I put my $$$ on WWII .

I know you have one of the LT ones. Stana was the one that was refuting those snipers and their documentation....unless his English came thru little wrong.

see his post....#39 in this thread.


As for the who made the IORs, seems Romanians did per David Fortier's article. I really wish I can get hold of him soon so I can find out the source of his info.

 

[Dave Roberts]

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I understand all that. But I was talking about rarity in terms of availability, not rarity in terms of todays value.


Optikotechna marked ZF39 scope made before switch to DOW/DOW+ are rare because not many were produced. (voigtlander has great pic of one with SS double claws he got from Meopta archives.)

P-series VZ-24 are rare in Europe since this series was made for export to Japan and China. Only few are known to be accepted in Czech service or found German modified...which mainly happened in 1938 because of the threat Hitler posed. Same thing happened to some R-series

We know both the rifle and scope to come from the same period of narrow range.

So we have hard to find scope, with hard to find VZ24 being assembled at random by some gunsmith in europe looking to make quick buck someplace that also used Czech mounts. All this means he not only matched up the items perfectly for country of origin by blind luck, he also got all three times to be period correct.

That's the aspect of it that boggles my mind. It's just too perfect to be blind luck with no other connection.

Peter Lets Clarify something the Picture You mention that Voigtlander posted from Meopta . These Rings are NOT SS DBL CLAW . They are Similar in Appearance but that is it . Best Regards

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Peter Lets Clarify something the Picture You mention that Voigtlander posted from Meopta . These Rings are NOT SS DBL CLAW . They are Similar in Appearance but that is it . Best Regards

Oh they aren't? Wow, sorry they looks just like them.....maybe a protoype iteration? Do you recognize that scope they are attached to BTW? I never seen one of those before. Development photo maybe?

 

[Hambone]

I read all of the GB thread and this one. A critical fact to the analysis which was intentionally omitted by the OP was that he bought this rifle as this (pics below):
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=347449838

Also compare to the pics of the rifle after OP swapped the stock (stating that it was "lightly numbered") and started an inquiry based upon the changed condition, which enhances the fantasy that this was a "sniper" because he put it in a military stock. This frankensporter is quite typical of many many postwar sporters, with mixed Mauser parts, etc. It looks better, and is indeed, "original" in its sporter stock that came with it when the OP bought it. That's its original condition. Hog or deer "sniper" perhaps.

It was built up as a sporter postwar, pure and simple, by any number of gun mechanics with free time in postwar Czechoslovakia or Germany. The OP wanted the analysis based upon his transformation of this sporter into a German modified Vz.24 stock, thus the "rare sniper" teaser post title. The only basis for the argument that it was "German WW2 used" is based upon the German mod Vz.24 stock the OP put it in. If the scope was prewar or postwar is of no moment because prewar and wartime scopes were used often for sporter fabrication postwar. All the fantasy arguments which focus on what someone's paw paw saw, what a Czechoslovakian told someone in 1983, and requiring people to prove a negative (i.e., it's real unless you can prove it isn't) are rather silly, like citing events from a Roadrunner cartoon to counter the laws of physics. In support of this being a "sniper" (indeed, it was a sporter a couple months ago before it became a "sniper") is mostly bullsh!t and angle shooting and little in the way of substantiated opinion or facts. If you want people to believe this is a "sniper" then you need to provide credible evidence of that and quit pi$$ing up ropes and telling everyone watching that what's getting on them is rain. Ringling Bros. Barnum and Bailey Thread.

The End.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Oh they aren't? Wow, sorry they looks just like them.....maybe a protoype iteration? Do you recognize that scope they are attached to BTW? I never seen one of those before. Development photo maybe?

Peter I have had Opportunity to Compare SS DBL CLAW MOUNTS to The Commercial Types which are Pictured and Others that are Very Similar I can tell You the ones that I have done a side by side comparison of the Parts are NOT interchangeable with each other. The Main Characteristic Differences that I have noticed with the Commercial Type is the overall height is always Less than the SS DBL CLAW TYPE in those that I have compared .Peter just do a Side By Side Picture Comparison and You will see the Difference just because the characteristics appear the same at a glance does not make them so, and to say that would be like calling a Horse an a$$ or Vise Versa . As for the Scope in Question can`t say If I recall having seen one before but what bearing does that have one the subject of You saying these Rings are SS Type , I am sure there is a Number of Scope Variations I have Not seen . This Thread really appears to be going No Where Now except Bickering Good Day. Best Regards

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Peter I have had Opportunity to Compare SS DBL CLAW MOUNTS to The Commercial Types which are Pictured and Others that are Very Similar I can tell You the ones that I have done a side by side comparison of the Parts are NOT interchangeable with each other. The Main Characteristic Differences that I have noticed with the Commercial Type is the overall height is always Less than the SS DBL CLAW TYPE in those that I have compared .Peter just do a Side By Side Picture Comparison and You will see the Difference just because the characteristics appear the same at a glance does not make them so, and to say that would be like calling a Horse an a$$ or Vise Versa . As for the Scope in Question can`t say If I recall having seen one before but what bearing does that have one the subject of You saying these Rings are SS Type , I am sure there is a Number of Scope Variations I have Not seen . This Thread really appears to be going No Where Now except Bickering Good Day. Best Regards

Sorry by "they looks just like them" im my post I meant they look like they could be twins, as in they are starkly similar. That's why I asked if they could be some protoype/development iteration. I wasnt insisting that they are indeed same SS mounts. Sorry for the confusion. They tricked me when I first glanced at them and made the SS claw mounts comment. You are right. they are not quite the same, resemblance is striking though.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Someone touched the scope's lenses... there is a huge achromatic default.

Correct. Somebody opened up the rear end, presumably to clean the lenses, and got things out of order putting them back in. That's why you are seeing the huge distortions and why the eye relief was waaay back like the shop owner mentioned in the ad. I took it to an optics guy I know and he got them back in order. Distortion is gone and eye relief is back where it should.

 

[agalland]

I became aware of this gun 3 weeks ago when a friend of mine was looking to purchase the rifle for the express purpose of stripping the scope from the gun and then reselling the rifle for what it appeared to be... a sported vz24.

Given all that has transpired since ....I still think that would probably have been the best course of action.

In the end a desireable scope for a cheap price for a collector, and a cheap sporter for a sportsman.


But then again....we would have missed out on all of this drama wouldnt we..;-)

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Anybody here German? My German isnt that good but am wondering what they are saying about the bolt handle that's clearly shaved in very similar fashion to clear the scope.

BTW that's another Czech scope on that rifle.....Srb A Stys Lovec 4x...and the oculars are approx same diameter.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

Anybody here German? My German isnt that good but am wondering what they are saying about the bolt handle that's clearly shaved in very similar fashion to clear the scope.

it doesnt say anything about the bolt handle, it is describing the double claw mounting system, its similarities to and roots in the ww1 gew98 scope mounting systems, and how it locates the scope directly over the bore.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

it doesnt say anything about the bolt handle, it is describing the double claw mounting system, its similarities to and roots in the ww1 gew98 scope mounting systems, and how it locates the scope directly over the bore.

damn Well at least there is pic evidence/provenance.




Can anybody ID the mounts?

 

[mauser99]

typical double claw commercial. They were used and pressed into service. The problem now is there are so many fakes and made up rifles no one would believe a real one if it popped out of the wood work..

 

[pgaplayerlss]

typical double claw commercial. They were used and pressed into service. The problem now is there are so many fakes and made up rifles no one would believe a real one if it popped out of the wood work..

Oh I totally understand that. The K98 stuff has been faked so extensively that I simply will not touch them with a 20 ft pole in the secondary market unless it's at bargain price where I wont get burned either way.

 

[Absolut]

This page read more as being BS. They're referring to something what would translate as "Double Claw Mount", but indeed showing the "Suhler Einhakmontage" (Robert Spielauer translates it as "Suhler Claw Mount"), a civilean hunting type scope mount. All known military rifles with this mount type do not have full rings around the front lense, they are silver soldered and and not closed.

Let me know which book that is, I'll look it up. The description of this mount lasts to another page aswell.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

This page read more as being BS. They're referring to something what would translate as "Double Claw Mount", but indeed showing the "Suhler Einhakmontage" (Robert Spielauer translates it as "Suhler Claw Mount"), a civilean hunting type scope mount. All known military rifles with this mount type do not have full rings around the front lense, they are silver soldered and and not closed.

Let me know which book that is, I'll look it up. The description of this mount lasts to another page aswell.

I'm not sure which exact German book it is at the moment. Below are few more pages. I think Dave Roberts might be able to tell us as he has digital copy of the period German sniper photo featured on the pages of that book.

 

[Absolut]

First two pages shown are from Robert Spielauers book. The last one is a different book, but I currently don't recognize that one. Will check my library.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

First two pages shown are from Robert Spielauers book. The last one is a different book, but I currently don't recognize that one. Will check my library.

I think I might have found the book. I think it's this:

http://d-nb.info/1017503044/about/html

Based on table of contents and pages correlation:

http://d-nb.info/1017503044/04


Karabiner 98k: 1934-1945, 98k as a sniper weapon. Richard D. Law. [From the English trans. by Bernd Rolff]

 

[StuG.III]

I'm not sure which exact German book it is at the moment. Below are few more pages. I think Dave Roberts might be able to tell us as he has digital copy of the period German sniper photo featured on the pages of that book.

Pgaplayerlss you make complete sense to me.

 

[Amberg]

damn Well at least there is pic evidence/provenance.

WHAT!? You call a photo in a post war book an evidence/provenance???????

@StuG: I'm sure he is paid for doing this to us.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

WHAT!? You call a photo in a post war book an evidence/provenance???????

@StuG: I'm sure he is paid for doing this to us.

Are you trying to say Rich Law has now been fooled and used faked sniper in his published documentation? Richard Law seems to be well respected author with number of books written on the K98k.

People been telling me how bolt handle relief cut can only be on cigarette rifles, that "it wasn't use on military snipers". Well that doesn't appear to be the case anymore based on what I found in published books on the subject. So with this regard specifically to the bolt, yes it is evidence/provenance.