pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
And if the Queen had balls she'd be King....
And if King had no balls you'd be asking where the balls go, not whether he's King.
A sniper rifle so rare that it might start a controversy :)
- Thread starter pgaplayerlss
- Start date
And if King had no balls you'd be asking where the balls go, not whether he's King.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Just refuting your strawman argument.
What does crudely altered reused sporter stock, proves about much finely crafted firearm it is found on?
rockisle1903
Senior Member
That bubba was a fine metal smith and a lousy woodworker...
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
With a non-sensical argument....
What it proves is it was messed with at some point. So at this point everything is called into doubt. The German parts...mean nothing, does not point to German use, could've been added when the stock was, or at any other point along the line.
The fact that you never happened to mention that YOU replaced a sporter stock with a proper VZ-24 stock while trying to discuss or vet this rifle means a lot. I think a lot of people looking at it were under the impression it was bought like that, ie in original military configuration. In that case, you may have an argument as to what it is. But seeing how it was actually bought changes thing dramatically.
It is not a strawman argument, since the way you bought it seems to tell more of the story than the way you presented it. If it walks, looks and quacks like a duck, its most likely a duck. When you have a rifle sold as a sporter in a sporter stock showing traits that scream sporterized put together, like a welded on sling swivel, and stippling that is not seen on military guns, but very common on sporterized military guns it adds up that it almost 100% is not any sort of original military sniper. Merely a nicely done put together.
You can make all the suppositions and excuses you want, but it doesn't change things. Just like the Queen....
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
and just happen to find minty non-import Czech VZ with minty bore , super rare Czech scope, and Czech mounts all from the same period to cobble himself a deer gun? Not very likely.
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pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
All it proves, whether it might be a cigarette rifle or originally scoped gun, is that the stock that came on it would not have come on either. It's dead end, and thus irrelevant, when establishing it to be either a cigarette rifle or originally scoped, or originally scoped then made into cigarette rifle. We do not know what stock was on there before Bubba decided swap stock.
The front sling is not welded on. IT looked like it was put on using wire solder. Popped off with a quick twist on it.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
OK back to discussing the parts that are relevant. I know somebody mentioned the milled safety. The only marking on it is picture below.It think it might be damaged or not made properly as it will not work in the usual 3 positions. The only positions that function is the left and vertical.
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
I concede defeat, I now do believe you own a super rare, experimental, prototype, unheard of, never before seen, super secret double probation Czech Sniper rifle, lovingly hand crafted by the finest Czech armorers pre-war to prove the concept of sniping to the Czech High Command. Probably on display in the Czech Military Museum when the Germans invaded. Seeing such a beautiful sniper, the Germans immediately re-worked it using finely crafted German parts, and pressed it into service, probably issuing it to Sepp Allenberger himself....
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Tiger 2 Tank
Senior Member
Wow. I've been following this thread and the one on Gunboards. As stated earlier, it is informative and entertaining. I really was almost convinced that something rare might have been found here. The owner's arguments were going pretty good from the little corner I was sitting in. His information seemed to me to be well researched and thought out, possibly anticipating the arguments that would come his way. Until the real evidence surfaced on what the gun was....then that flipped the entire scene/scenerio/picture, everything. Here's why:
Basically, it's "fruits from a poisonous tree". The stock and mis-matched parts are poisonous to this rifle. Therefore the whole entire thing is bad. That's how it's being looked at. The whole way this was presented was just not right. If the owner had come out and said that the rifle was bought the way it was and here's what I see and here's what was done to it.....then that would have been a whole lot better than the way it was all presented to the commuity here. The way this was presented, to me, was that the owner had found "this" complete rifle somewhere, due to his experience and knowledge, saw that it was more than what the previous owner knew it to be and had a super great price tag on it. Now with the evidence in hand as to what it really was, it just killed it as a mis-match put together.
So now the question of the owner is only about the barrel, receiver and scope set? Before it was about the whole rifle itself until the auction evidence surfaced. If that's what he would like to know, that's fine.
Two things that "caught me" on this was; (1) super rare and (2) the low price. When buying, these are the two things that are real red flags out there. The "low price" is usually the "Trojan Horse" that pulls a buyer in. Then the arguments of the seller that it is "super rare" or maybe just "rare" or something along that line is the final pull of the buyer into the trap before it is sprung when the money starts to exchange hands. This is a horrible experience to us buyers and this whole rifle thread, the way it was presented, takes us all back to one of those types of sells to us in the past. It's our "learning" or our "dues" to this hobby that are painful to us. So, when someone brings us something like this and the way this was presented to us, the flashbacks of these bad experiences come into play.
Basically, it's "fruits from a poisonous tree". The stock and mis-matched parts are poisonous to this rifle. Therefore the whole entire thing is bad. That's how it's being looked at. The whole way this was presented was just not right. If the owner had come out and said that the rifle was bought the way it was and here's what I see and here's what was done to it.....then that would have been a whole lot better than the way it was all presented to the commuity here. The way this was presented, to me, was that the owner had found "this" complete rifle somewhere, due to his experience and knowledge, saw that it was more than what the previous owner knew it to be and had a super great price tag on it. Now with the evidence in hand as to what it really was, it just killed it as a mis-match put together.
So now the question of the owner is only about the barrel, receiver and scope set? Before it was about the whole rifle itself until the auction evidence surfaced. If that's what he would like to know, that's fine.
Two things that "caught me" on this was; (1) super rare and (2) the low price. When buying, these are the two things that are real red flags out there. The "low price" is usually the "Trojan Horse" that pulls a buyer in. Then the arguments of the seller that it is "super rare" or maybe just "rare" or something along that line is the final pull of the buyer into the trap before it is sprung when the money starts to exchange hands. This is a horrible experience to us buyers and this whole rifle thread, the way it was presented, takes us all back to one of those types of sells to us in the past. It's our "learning" or our "dues" to this hobby that are painful to us. So, when someone brings us something like this and the way this was presented to us, the flashbacks of these bad experiences come into play.
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pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Exactly, nail on the head.....
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Everything but the stock set came with the rifle. The question is about everything but the wood.
I'm still in process of researching the rifle/optics with people that might have actual records. This thread was started just to get a discussion going on Czech snipers and Czech optics.
Ultimately, just like the IOR VZ-24 snipers, I'm doing my own personal research into it hoping to find historical information rather then rely on the generic consensus of the online community when documentation is lacking.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
How do you figure? I have been willing to entertaining the idea that this is a cigarette rifle (regardless of stock). The only issue I see with this is how did a European gunsmith looking to make a quick buck making a pretty rifle managed to by random selecting all these quite rare items that also happen to be both country-correct and period correct in a narrow range.
That is what I struggle with. It's very plausible.....but wow it's like hitting the lotto odds This is why I bought it and why I'm researching it with those with archives.
Right now, I cannot authenticate it, its just a theory that might never be provable.
Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
Why is anyone trying anymore? The world, including such newbies and unknowledgable people such as Mike, Dave, and Stana, is wrong, PGA is right. Has no one realized that?
PGA- take this rifle over to the czech boards, I dont think your presence has been very well received here. BTW an extremely simple answer to what you cant wrap your head around, about someone using rare items and selling it for cheap. Possible scenario, or a million slightly altered versions of it: somewhere between 1945 and 1990 when parts were still dirt cheap, someone assembles this rifle. They then die and leave the rifle to someone else who, having no idea what it is or the value, then puts it on gunbroker, where you buy it on the cheap, "restore" it, and then flaunt it as original and refute all explanations to the contrary. Quite simple really.
PGA- take this rifle over to the czech boards, I dont think your presence has been very well received here. BTW an extremely simple answer to what you cant wrap your head around, about someone using rare items and selling it for cheap. Possible scenario, or a million slightly altered versions of it: somewhere between 1945 and 1990 when parts were still dirt cheap, someone assembles this rifle. They then die and leave the rifle to someone else who, having no idea what it is or the value, then puts it on gunbroker, where you buy it on the cheap, "restore" it, and then flaunt it as original and refute all explanations to the contrary. Quite simple really.
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pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
In the case of German snipers. I would agree with you, completely. The issues with VZ24 snipers is that they are so sparsely documented, even in the Czech language sources.
Look in this very thread. There are people that have Czech proofed Zeiss optics from the 1930's trial VZ snipers along with documentation from Czech historian, yet there are other members that claim no such snipers and documentation exists. And the conflicting information comes from most senior/knowledgeable folks.
Than there is the hot issue about whether IOR VZ24 snipers are WWII or post-war, there are people believing one thing or another.
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pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Why can't you just make a post about the K98 you wanted to see pictures off and I sent them to you? Is it because the pictures aren't what you were hoping for and is counter productive to your continual mocking?
You know what, forget it, I will PM them to Winchester Cowboy. You will just keep beating it around the bush.
Winchester Cowboy.......you have a PM.
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Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
Because the entire premise was for you to send pictures of the "original wartime mismatched parts", which you failed to do. Not difficult to comprehend....somebody ban this moron please.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
So wait....im going to claim I have mismatched battlefield pickup rifle rather then full matching one because that makes logical sense as it more valuable, rare and historically significant?
