Third Party Press

A sniper rifle so rare that it might start a controversy :)

pgaplayerlss said:
How do you figure? I have been willing to entertaining the idea that this is a cigarette rifle (regardless of stock). The only issue I see with this is how did a European gunsmith looking to make a quick buck making a pretty rifle managed to by random selecting all these quite rare items that also happen to be both country-correct and period correct in a narrow range.

That is what I struggle with. It's very plausible.....but wow it's like hitting the lotto odds This is why I bought it and why I'm researching it with those with archives.

Right now, I cannot authenticate it, its just a theory that might never be provable.
Click to expand...

Look, at one time, through the 40's, 50's, 60's and into the 70's, but especially in the 40's and 50's when cigarette guns were being made a lot in Europe for US Soldiers....no matter how "rare" something is now, the stuff then was near worthless. Nobody wanted it.

Why do you think so many USGI's sporterized their bringbacks...because they wanted something new and cool like the civilian commercial Remchesters that were available...but they couldn't afford them, so they sporterized their bringbacks...they were free. And back then just about worthless. Hell, Japanese rifles were still sub $100 10 years ago, you couldn't give them away.

Everybody wanted commercial stuff. Stippling was done to give the "look" of a nice commercially made gun, I've seen it on a lot of sporterized guns.

Since any pretense of context is out the window since you received the gun in a sporterized condition, there is very little that can be gleaned from the assemblage of parts you have. So unless you can find some primary source of information, it will be forever an unknown...
 
pzjgr said:
Look, at one time, through the 40's, 50's, 60's and into the 70's, but especially in the 40's and 50's when cigarette guns were being made a lot in Europe for US Soldiers....no matter how "rare" something is now, the stuff then was near worthless. Nobody wanted it.

Why do you think so many USGI's sporterized their bringbacks...because they wanted something new and cool like the civilian commercial Remchesters that were available...but they couldn't afford them, so they sporterized their bringbacks...they were free. And back then just about worthless. Hell, Japanese rifles were still sub $100 10 years ago, you couldn't give them away.

Everybody wanted commercial stuff. Stippling was done to give the "look" of a nice commercially made gun, I've seen it on a lot of sporterized guns.

Since any pretense of context is out the window since you received the gun in a sporterized condition, there is very little that can be gleaned from the assemblage of parts you have. So unless you can find some primary source of information, it will be forever an unknown...
Click to expand...
i

I understand all that. But I was talking about rarity in terms of availability, not rarity in terms of todays value.


Optikotechna marked ZF39 scope made before switch to DOW/DOW+ are rare because not many were produced. (voigtlander has great pic of one with SS double claws he got from Meopta archives.)

P-series VZ-24 are rare in Europe since this series was made for export to Japan and China. Only few are known to be accepted in Czech service or found German modified...which mainly happened in 1938 because of the threat Hitler posed. Same thing happened to some R-series

We know both the rifle and scope to come from the same period of narrow range.

So we have hard to find scope, with hard to find VZ24 being assembled at random by some gunsmith in europe looking to make quick buck someplace that also used Czech mounts. All this means he not only matched up the items perfectly for country of origin by blind luck, he also got all three times to be period correct.

That's the aspect of it that boggles my mind. It's just too perfect to be blind luck with no other connection.
 
I think the main issue here you are trying to convince everyone of something with no evidence.

Rare czech gun, scope, and mount.....proves absolutely nothing. It could just be totally random.

Look at all the put together german snipers......byf44 with right timeframe mount and scope, does that make it legit? NO.

You have to stop trying to convince everyone with just your hopes. Find some concrete evidence and you could make an argument. But conjecture is getting you no where, especially as it obviously just appears to be a sporter.
 
There are no longer any doubts that this is nothing but a sporterized vz24, and further discussions would be beating a very dead horse.

But the scope is still interesting. I am confused about the consensus on the origin. It is clearly not military for the reasons Dave pointed out (no windage or elevation markings at all), but is it a wartime commercial or post-war commercial? I think everyone agrees the rings are commercial, but any way to date them?
 
CanadianAR said:
I think the main issue here you are trying to convince everyone of something with no evidence.

Rare czech gun, scope, and mount.....proves absolutely nothing. It could just be totally random.

Look at all the put together german snipers......byf44 with right timeframe mount and scope, does that make it legit? NO.

You have to stop trying to convince everyone with just your hopes. Find some concrete evidence and you could make an argument. But conjecture is getting you no where, especially as it obviously just appears to be a sporter.
Click to expand...


Correct, right now there is no hard evidence. There has been some suggestions in past that some rifles were proofed with Optikotechna scopes, but so far no documentation.

It could be put together by random....but the simple odds of that knowing the details on the individual components are simply staggering.

I dont care if anybody believes me or not as I'm not trying to convince anybody, im just putting the observations out there while trying to research this further with VHU and Meopta in Czech.
 
RyanE said:
There are no longer any doubts that this is nothing but a sporterized vz24, and further discussions would be beating a very dead horse.

But the scope is still interesting. I am confused about the consensus on the origin. It is clearly not military for the reasons Dave pointed out (no windage or elevation markings at all), but is it a wartime commercial or post-war commercial? I think everyone agrees the rings are commercial, but any way to date them?
Click to expand...

see voigtlander's post #75. 3rd picture is a very interesting OPTIKOTECHNA marked scope in SS double claw mounts. That one also has no dial marks interestinly enough
 
Winchester Cowboy. Please delete your posts immediately. When I said I didn't want to be discussing the k98, I meant it. You were not given the permission to publish these images.

Fact you stole them and re-hosted them can be pursued legally.
 
Last edited:
pgaplayerlss said:
Winchester Cowboy. Please delete your posts immediately. When I said I didn't want to be discussing the k98, I meant it. You were not given the permission to publish these images.

Fact you stole them and re-hosted them can be pursued legally.
Click to expand...

Oh great, another craphouse lawyer...YOU forwarded them to him, so he didn't steal them....you may be wrapped to tight for Michigan...
 
pzjgr said:
Oh great, another craphouse lawyer...YOU forwarded them to him, so he didn't steal them....you may be wrapped to tight for Michigan...
Click to expand...

Instructions were given when I sent them. He took the imagines and rehosted them on his personal server.
 
Well I finally heard back from the shop that sold the gun. According to them the owner owned the gun more than 15 years but wasn't inherited so full history might never be known. I left my contact info with them. They will ask the seller if its ok for them to send me his contact info when he returns. Hopefully, he wants to talk.
 
pgaplayerlss said:
Winchester Cowboy. Please delete your posts immediately. When I said I didn't want to be discussing the k98, I meant it. You were not given the permission to publish these images.

Fact you stole them and re-hosted them can be pursued legally.
Click to expand...

Jesus, calm down. Why send them in the first place if thats not the rifle you want to discuss.......
 
No, if you didnt want anyone to see the pics, why send them AT all?

If the issue at hand isnt that rifle, no point in sending them in the first place.
 
CanadianAR said:
No, if you didnt want anyone to see the pics, why send them AT all?

If the issue at hand isnt that rifle, no point in sending them in the first place.
Click to expand...

Because he was questioning the authenticity of the K98 that the deserter German solider left behind which my grand uncle pick up in 1945. I told him number of times I will not be posting the rifle here and sending him private communication with them for his private eyes to look over and then comment on here if he finds it legit.

So what does he do? Rips copies of them without my permission, hosts them on his private server and posts the on here against my wishes. I guess some people have no decency.
 
pgaplayerlss said:
All it proves, whether it might be a cigarette rifle or originally scoped gun, is that the stock that came on it would not have come on either. It's dead end, and thus irrelevant, when establishing it to be either a cigarette rifle or originally scoped, or originally scoped then made into cigarette rifle. We do not know what stock was on there before Bubba decided swap stock.

The front sling is not welded on. IT looked like it was put on using wire solder. Popped off with a quick twist on it.
Click to expand...

Peter this Statement in Your own word , Says exactly what many are also trying to get you to look at realistically (It's dead end, and thus irrelevant, when establishing it to be either a cigarette rifle or originally scoped, or originally scoped then made into cigarette rifle.) The same can be said about the Scope Rings and Bases . The fact is it could have been a Basic VZ24 . There is No Way to know, When and or Were or Even Who Scoped the VZ24 . The only Possibility to find out is if an Original War Time Photo surfaces or Documentation to substantiate , but from the certain Particulars that have been done to the Rifle my thought is they are more in line with a Post War Sporter Rifle . Short of some kind of Documented Proof to Back Your Desirers of it to be a Military Sniper all is Irrelevant short of Real Substantial Proof . Best Regards
 
Dave Roberts said:
Peter this Statement in Your own word , Says exactly what many are also trying to get you to look at realistically (It's dead end, and thus irrelevant, when establishing it to be either a cigarette rifle or originally scoped, or originally scoped then made into cigarette rifle.) The same can be said about the Scope Rings and Bases . The fact is it could have been a Basic VZ24 . There is No Way to know, When and or Were or Even Who Scoped the VZ24 . The only Possibility to find out is if an Original War Time Photo surfaces or Documentation to substantiate , but from the certain Particulars that have been done to the Rifle my thought is they are more in line with a Post War Sporter Rifle . Short of some kind of Documented Proof to Back Your Desirers of it to be a Military Sniper all is Irrelevant short of Real Substantial Proof . Best Regards
Click to expand...

I fully agree with you that currently my theory about it being originally scoped doesn't have any hard evidence....and I'm on the quest of finding, hopefully, some.

And I'm even willing to consider the made from scratch "cigarette rifle" ideal. But here's some things for all you guys to ponder on:

We have a Czech Rifle, Czech scope, and Czech mounts....ignoring even the period matching of all of the components.....The only rational explanation of how this rifle was made as "cigarette rifle" would be to say it was made in Czechoslovakia by Czech gun smith. Now, Americans only liberated the south-western area of Czechoslovakia, ~3500 sq miles, or about 6.5% of the land area. The land area they liberated has historically been mostly farm lands and vineyards/breweries, not a region of industry. US forces crossed into CS in May, 1945 and left completely in Dec 1945. By 1948, the Communist overthrew the Czech government in a coup.

Do you think it's likely that in 7-months that US servicemen spend in Czechoslovakia, somebody would cook them up a cigarette rifle when captures are so plentiful?

Remember the treatment Czechs received as far as financial and material assistance goes was starkly different than Germant experienced. Czech were allies. They didn't need to beg, and please for money to feed their families.
 
Last edited:
pgaplayerlss said:
In the case of German snipers. I would agree with you, completely. The issues with VZ24 snipers is that they are so sparsely documented, even in the Czech language sources.

Look in this very thread. There are people that have Czech proofed Zeiss optics from the 1930's trial VZ snipers along with documentation from Czech historian, yet there are other members that claim no such snipers and documentation exists. And the conflicting information comes from most senior/knowledgeable folks.

Than there is the hot issue about whether IOR VZ24 snipers are WWII or post-war, there are people believing one thing or another.
Click to expand...

Peter whom are the most senior knowledgeable members You are referring to that are disputing that the Czech Proofed Zeiss Optics and Snipers and Documentation does not exist . I know for a Fact that the Zeiss Czech Proofed Optics Exist . Not myself because I have one Complete Zeiss with LT Rings and had just a Scope lacking the Rings . I have 2 Very Knowledgeable Friends who Contacted Czech Archives when these Zeiss Scopes first came to be known . As for which Model Rifle they were mounted to I do not know if that fact was known . but if You have Documentation that mentions that Fact ,maybe You would share that here . If not I will ask Stana or maybe my 2 other friends if they have that Documentation they would share . Best Regards

In regards to the IOR VZ24 Sniper at least NOW there is a Period Photo that Proves they were manufactured , but it seems they are Romanian from Heading of Auction and the other weapons seems to help prove that is correct . Who made the VZ24 Snipers though , Czechs or Romanian ?
From the Photo I put my $$$ on WWII .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Military Rifle Journal
Back
Top