Third Party Press

Useful excerpts about soldiers disassembling K98k's, Waffenmeisters & field reworks

Stephan great and informative read. It's also interesting to me how our current Army operates with respect to weapons repairs and inspections and who can do what level of operations, where they are located within the system and what tools or gauges they are allowed to have and use. We also separate our 'waffenmeisters' at different levels in a combat formation (IE combat trains or field trains). I think they correlate well to the German term 'baggage'. Even under extreme circumstances our unit level 'armorers' cannot completely disassemble weapons. They will have neither the proper tools or parts.
 
I'm glad you enjoy it and I can imagine that there are many similarities.

The whole topic is very complex and therefore I don't know where I should start. I want to share as many informations as possible, but often the translations are very difficult and it takes a lot of time.
In the next time I will write more about the exhausting topic Waffenmeister, Weapon NCO and Armorer helper, I still have a lot of documents and informations. Now I will first go into a topic that was addressed in the beginning of this thread.
 
Cleaning/refurbishing

Originally Posted by mrfarb - An interesting thing about #65 from the Heeres Verordnungsblatt about "extraordinary cleaning" after the winter of 40/41. This entry names a specific event which caused much wear and tear on small arms, enough to warrant special cleaning/refurbishing due to wear, especially blue wear. But, if you didn't catch this point, the decree lays out where to buy supplies for the unit Waffenmeister to obtain bluing salts to refinish the rifles. That is it - this seems to indicate, at least up until 1941/42, unit armorers did not have materials to refinish weapons on hand. Refinishing was done by the depots further up the chain of repair.
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I will show some more Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen and Heeres Verordnungsblatt orders, these are arranged in chronological order and thus some interesting questions are answered.

General Army Communication No. 65 has the topic Extraordinary cleaning (Außerordentliche Reinigung), remember the different cleaning procedures "Gewöhnliche Reinigung - ordinary cleaning", "Hauptreinigung - main cleaning" and "Außerordentliche Reinigung - extraordinary cleaning". The soldiers are responsible for the ordinary cleaning and when necessary, the main cleaning. Only the armorer staff was allowed to execute the extraordinary cleaning. ***


General Army Communications published by the Army High Command - Berlin, October 20, 1937

484. Hot dip bluing and cold bluing of infantry weapons

A number of companies are currently working on the sale of hot dip bluing constructions and bluing salt at troop armorers.

It is pointed out that the testing of suitable hot dip bluing constructions and bluing salts is not yet concluded and their purchase is therefore not yet possible.

Furthermore several companies offer cold bluing mordant. This bluing process is not suitable for use on infantry weapons. Cold bluing mordant should therefore not be purchased.

Supreme High Command of the German Army,
October 11, 1937. AHA/In 2 (VII).
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Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command - Berlin, February 15, 1940

197. Hot dip bluing process

The hot dip bluing process is permitted beside the rust-scratching-method for the refurbishing of the finishes, according to H. Dv. 376.

It allows the troops to blue small parts during repairs with time and labor saving.

The necessary equipment has to be manufactured on a small scale by the troop armorer.

Procurement of equipment etc. on the free market has to cease. In due course the intended hot dip bluing construction specified in H. Dv. 376 will be assigned to the troop.

H. Dv. 376 --- Hot dip bluing ---, Description of the equipment and instructions for use --- from November 6, 1939 is sent by the Heeresdruckvorschriftenverwaltung.

In the H. Dv. 1 a from May 1, 1939 on page 145, H. Dv. 376 in column 2: “Name and date of issue” and in column 5: “Wa Prüf 2 In 2" are to be entered manually.

O.K.H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE), February 6, 1940
---- 134/40 ---- AHA/Jn 2 (VII).
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General Army Communications published by the Army High Command - Berlin, January 21, 1941

65. Extraordinary cleaning, renovation of the finishes and zero in of the small arms and machine guns at the troops in winter 1940/41.

1. The Extraordinary cleaning can be carried out on sidearms, small arms and machine guns which are
owned by the troops for more than half a year, if the march-standby of the troops allow it.

2. On weapons where the finishes are worn, the renovation may be carried out by the hot dip bluing process, using analogously the regulation of H. Dv. 376.

In order to carry out the work, the troops have to build makeshift hot dip bluing equipment. Existing suitable containers can be used. For hot dip bluing only welded tin-free steel containers are suitable, which can be put into operation on open fire. Brick-built ovens shouldn’t be produced. It is explicit pointed out that soft-soldered, hard-soldered, tin-plated, galvanized and copper containers are not suitable for hot dip bluing.

The required degreasing agent, the bluing salt and the temperature gauge are to be obtained on the free market.

The bluing salt and the temperature gauge can be obtained from the following companies:
a) Dr. Uecker, Köln-Nippes, Meerheimerstr. 312, b) Goerig, Mannheim, Hafenstr. 25,
c) Alexandrinen-Apotheke, Berlin SW 68, Alexandrinenstr.112,
d) R. Schüler, Leipzig, Kochstr. 124,
e) Emil Otto, Magdeburg, Spielgartenstr. 33.

Machine gun oil for the oil bath has to be obtained for the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) from the responsible Heereszeugamt, for the Feldheer (Field Army) from the responsible Infanteriepark (infantry equipment park).

Care must be taken to ensure that the work is carried out quickly and unobstructed, in particular degreasing agent and bluing salt must be ensured before starting work.

When carry the work out, the regulation of H. Dv. 376 page 9 section C “safety precautions” and page 12 marginal cipher 29 “prevention of accidents” must be followed strictly. If the opportunity is given, protective clothing must be obtained in accordance with marginal cipher 6 of the same regulation.

The costs are to be booked in chapter VIII E 230.

3. The zero in of the small arms and machine guns has to be done, if necessary on makeshift arranged shooting ranges, according to regulation H. Dv. 242 in compliance with the given safety regulations.

O.K.H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE), January 7, 1941
72 a/n ---- AHA/Jn 2 (VII).
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General Army Communications published by the Army High Command - Berlin, April 7, 1941

337. Renovation of the finishes of the small arms and machine guns

---- H. M. 1941 Page 43 No. 65. ----

The bluing has to be limited to 2 cm barrels, machine guns, small arms and S.G. (Seitengewehre - bayonets) with strongly worn finishes. It is only to perform from the troops which have appropriate tools, a hot dip bluing construction (also makeshift ones), zero in prospects and which have full trained armorer labor.

Request on machines and hot dip bluing constructions can not be considered at the moment.

O.K.H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE), March 25, 1941
---- 77 d ---- AHA/In 2 (III).
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*** Here is a excerpt of an Pistole 08 official instruction

D.V.E. Nr. 255. (official instruction No. 255) Pistole 08. - Berlin, May 4, 1909
Chapter III. Maintenance - Page 76 - No. 207

207. Finishes worn:
The bluing of the pistols is generally carried out only in the Außerordentliche Reinigung (extraordinary cleaning) in the fall and only when necessary.
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Cleaning/refurbishing

Here you can see a armorer at work, the mysterious work he does is the "Außerordentliche Reinigung und Erneuerung der Deckungsmittel (Extraordinary cleaning and renovation of the finishes)":

024b.jpg


His table is official armorer equipment, it's a smaller version of the work table with retractable frame.


Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command - Berlin, April 5, 1940

409. Work table with retractable frame.

As armorer equipment a work table with retractable frame get introduced:

Name: Work table with retractable frame (1100 x 500 x 40),
Classification of equipment number: 40,
Equipment classification: J,
Requisition number: J 26011,
Drawing No.: 34 B 25,
Weight: 25 kilogram

The work table with retractable frame (1100 x 500 x 40) get carried on the troop armorer vehicle.

The workbench, countertop 1500 x 500 x 50, requisition number J ---, listed in the K.U.N. of the Battalion- and Abteilung staff with classification of equipment number 40 is out of use. It is replaced by the work table with retractable frame.
Existing workbenches must be handed over to the responsible Heeres Zeugamt after delivery of the work tables.

Until October 1, 1940 requisitions for work tables are to be submitted centralized to
the O.K.H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE) AHA /Fz In via U.O.K. by the general commands.

O.K.H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE), March 30, 1940
---- 77 d ---- In 2 (VII).
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Stephan,

Your posts are among the most informative I have ever read. This is the type of information that will move the hobby forward.
Thanks for taking the time to share this information.
 
Yes, and 8x57's posts are the kind which set us apart. The value of a forum and site like this is the validity and accuracy of the information. No blithering masquerading as information.
 
I agree, this has been the pattern of Stephan's contribution to this forum, the books Mike and Bruce wrote and the hobby in general. To say this type of work is time consuming is a gross understatement, - this level of work with this much commitment is what I was referring to earlier... Stephan has the makings of being a true expert in the hobby, expert in the sense an artisan, which is not to say an expert can't be wrong, often they can be less objective than a specialist, but the distinction is important. The expert works off instinct and vast experience, the specialist works from observations and sometimes that is an advantage. Though in Stephan's case he is also an accomplished specialist in the sense he trends and does related research.

Anyway, the main thing is I have never seen anyone in the hobby do this level of work... I thought Mark Weiringa was the man (1898-1945), but i am starting to think Stephan will surpass Mark's contribution.

runner said:
Stephan,

Your posts are among the most informative I have ever read. This is the type of information that will move the hobby forward.
Thanks for taking the time to share this information.
Click to expand...
 
What Stephan has that others in the US lack is the ability to quickly read and comprehend German manuals (other than the fact he's the Energizer Bunny of looking at stuff), along with real world experience as an armorer in the German army using many similar manuals, and then convey that knowledge to English speakers. Much time was spent on the book project just translating documents (Stephan did a lot of that for us as well). Not to say it's "easy" for Stephan to translate from German to English, it takes time and effort but his translations are colloquial enough we can understand them quickly. So, we all benefit. Stephan obtained a set of the Heeres-Verordnungsblatt for the book project, which Stephan painstakingly went through and picked out entries/translated for the book. We used a lot of the excerpts, but you can't fit everything in there, even now there is some put here that we did not have at the time. That's the benefit to a forum, we can continue the work, and Stephan can shine like a beacon, giving us jewels that we've never even heard of but have readily available, nobody bothered to look. Great job Stephan, the English speaking collecting community is blessed to have you on our side!
 
mrfarb said:
What Stephan has that others in the US lack is the ability to quickly read and comprehend German manuals (other than the fact he's the Energizer Bunny of looking at stuff), along with real world experience as an armorer in the German army using many similar manuals, and then convey that knowledge to English speakers. Much time was spent on the book project just translating documents (Stephan did a lot of that for us as well). Not to say it's "easy" for Stephan to translate from German to English, it takes time and effort but his translations are colloquial enough we can understand them quickly. So, we all benefit. Stephan obtained a set of the Heeres-Verordnungsblatt for the book project, which Stephan painstakingly went through and picked out entries/translated for the book. We used a lot of the excerpts, but you can't fit everything in there, even now there is some put here that we did not have at the time. That's the benefit to a forum, we can continue the work, and Stephan can shine like a beacon, giving us jewels that we've never even heard of but have readily available, nobody bothered to look. Great job Stephan, the English speaking collecting community is blessed to have you on our side!
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This is a great thread, full of unbelievable facts and info that we may never have seen without the work of those involved, so thank you all very much!! Great stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Many thanks to you all, I'm happy that I can contribute something useful. There are a lot of members in this forum with an incredible amount of specialized knowledge and these members are willing to share their knowledge with everyone else. I just want to give back something you gave me. The exchange of information advances research and these informations must be shared, so that the knowledge doesn't get lost.
Nobody knows everything. If I write something wrong or misinterpret something, it's important that you tell me. Spreading wrong information is unfavorable, the incorrect information is then repeated by others and eventually considered as fact. The thread on Gunboards that was deleted is a good example. Random Member mixed correct with incorrect information. Unfortunately he lack the ability to be able to take criticism and accept facts, partial knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

@Mike
No joke, I even had dreams about the Heeres-Verordnungsblatt and Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen. Because the pressure of time in the end of the project, I went at first through about 6,000 pages Heeres-Verordnungsblatt 1939-1942 and around 1,500 pages Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen 1939-1945 and picked out relevant entries. After this job, in the breaks between the translations, I went through around 1,500 pages Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen 1934-1938 and picked out interesting entries. Some of the AHM 1934-1938 entries I have translated for you, although they wasn't relevant for Volume II. Some of these pre-1939 entries I have to translate and the translated ones which doesn't went into Volume II I will show in this thread, because somehow it's connected with the work of a armorer.
Nevertheless, working on Volume II was a pleasure because everyone involved did a great job. The collector community and researchers can be grateful that you both wrote these great books. As already said, if you write another book, then you can count on me. :happy0180:
 
Large armorer tool kit for machine guns and hand weapons

Unfortunately I don't own a "Large armorer tool kit for machine guns and hand weapons" (Großer Waffenmeisterwerkzeugkasten für Maschinengewehre und Handwaffen), therefore I can't show pictures of it. In the book Karabiner 98k Volume II, in the chapter "Reworks & Depot Builds", are high quality pictures. If someone wants to provide me with some pics, I will put them in this post.


General Army Communications published by the Army High Command - Berlin, June 21, 1935

274. Spare box and tool kit for hand weapons and machine guns.

The instructions

H. Dv. g 11, Großer Waffenmeisterkasten (98) für Handwaffen (Large armorer box (98) for hand weapons),

H. Dv. g 12, Kleiner Waffenmeisterkasten (98) für Handwaffen (Small armorer box (98) for hand weapons),

H. Dv. g 27, Der große Vorratskasten für M.G. 08 (The large spare box for M.G. 08),

H. Dv. g 28, Der Waffenmeisterwerkzeugkasten für M.G. (The armorer tool kit for machine gun)

are withdrawn and are according to Verschl. V. - H. Dv. g 2 – Ziff. 56 ff to be destroyed.

The spare parts for hand weapons and machine guns are specified in the annexes to the Ausrüstungsnachweisungen (equipment documentation)***. Furthermore, Großer Waffenmeisterkasten 98 (Large armorer box 98), Kleiner Waffenmeisterkasten 98 (Small armorer box 98) and Waffenmeisterwerkzeugkasten für M.G. (armorer tool kit for machine gun) are replaced by Großer Waffenmeisterwerkzeugkasten für Maschinengewehre und Handwaffen (Large armorer tool kit for machine guns and hand weapons). (Annex J 3401 to the Ausrüstungsnachweisungen - equipment documentation)

Supreme High Command of the German Army,
June 7, 1935 AHA/In 2 VI.
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*** A example Kriegsausrüstungsnachweisung (war equipment documentation) is in #17: Link
 
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It's probably the case that everyone involved in the production of the books is enjoying time off from same but I think there's another book waiting to be produced from the info/materials referenced and posted above.
So put down the doughnuts Gomer, and get to work!
 
chasdev said:
It's probably the case that everyone involved in the production of the books is enjoying time off from same but I think there's another book waiting to be produced from the info/materials referenced and posted above.
So put down the doughnuts Gomer, and get to work!
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Much of this actually did make it into the last set of books, it's in Chapter 12. There is no books in the works, I'm worn out. Well, we want to do a pocket guide for gun show buyers.
 
K98k barrels production defects

Here are two in my opinion very interesting orders from the year 1936, they concern the task of the armorer. In addition it's an interesting background information about early K98k, the quality and occurring manufacturing defects. The company Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik (BLM) and Berlin-Suhler Waffen- und Fahrzeugwerke (BSW) had started production in 1936, but note the date of the orders and therefore it probably refers more to the company Mauser Berlin-Borsigwalde and Erfurter Maschinenfabrik.
The last document Mike has already shown on the first page. But I'll show it again because it fits very well in this post regarding the responsibility of exchange of rifle barrels.


General Army Communications published by the Army High Command - Berlin, March 16, 1936

157. Production defects on the barrels of new K. 98 k

The demand for K. 98 k means that more companies are required, as well as the need to use a variety of materials to produce barrels. These circumstances temporarily lead to a deviation from the previously required quality level of production.

The first time inspection of new delivered K. 98 k and for replaced new barrels, in the inside of the barrels, specified manufacturing defects, such as

milling rings in the transition part of the chamber,

milling rings in the chamber,

damaged land edges – occurred when the transition part has been milled - ,

rifling corrugations,

sporadic impressions on the land and in the groove,

drilling rings on the lands and similar appearance

are, because they do not influence the usability and shot capacity of the weapon, or influence it very rarely in exceptional cases, it is not objectionable. According to H. Dv. 181/3 cipher 10 to establish Laufuntersuchungsbefunden (barrel-examination-findings) - in accordance with cipher 11, last paragraph “Specific findings” - the responsible Armorer or Weapons NCO has to inscribe the manufacturing defects in column 8.

Supreme High Command of the German Army,
February 28, 1936 AHA/In 2 (III).
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General Army Communications published by the Army High Command - Berlin, June 24, 1936

397. Cracked barrels of K. 98 k

In order to gain an overview of how many barrels of the K. 98 k, which are in service in the units, had become unusable because of cracks and had to be replaced - the Generalkommando must report until September 1, 1936 how many K. 98 k with cracked barrels have been identified in the regiment, division etc. between January 1, 1936 and June 30, 1936.

K. 98 k, on which the barrel cracked after June 30, 1936, until further notice they has to get send in present condition for the examination to Heereswaffenamt Prüfwesen 2 in the district III J commander's office Shooting Range Kummersdorf in
Kummersdorf, district Teltow.

After removal of the barrel for the material testing, the K. 98 k get send back to the unit for reinstatement work.

Supreme High Command of the German Army,
June 4, 1936 AHA/In 2 (III).
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Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command - Berlin, June 5, 1940

637. Small arms repair in field workshops

The field workshops don't have sight-adjustment-devices, no pressure-test-units and no pressure-test-ammunition to make the proof fire testing, zero in and the practicability testing. To adjust new barrels in small arms, the testing of the weapons are absolutely necessary to guarantee the safety of the shooters.

In the field workshops it's therefore forbidden

1. to adjust new barrels in small arms and

2. to assemble new small arms from captured inventory.

O.K.H. (Ch H Rüst u. BdE), May 23, 1940
---- 72 ---- AHA / In 2 (VII).
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