Useful excerpts about soldiers disassembling K98k's, Waffenmeisters & field reworks

[M1903A3]

Here's that picture I promise to post. This is at an ordinance maintenance shop near the front lines in Europe October 25th 1944. I dug this photo out of a massive picture bin at the SOS show a few years ago.

Very cool photo! General Patton and lots of Garands and Carbines. Great find!


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[mike radford]

A lot of MP44s have been supplied to allies, like Syria. They showed up in other Mid eastern countries.

There are dozens and dozens of MP44s in Russian museums. They have them in piles in the Museum of the Great Patriot War in Moscow.

The scrapped many weapons that were not serviceable or not worth repair.

 

[RyanE]

I am very late to this party, but I didn't realize there was discussion of the SVT40 going on in here...

The Russians made the shortened version, but I have no idea how many got produced. Certainly the German army captured a few and therefore the entry in the "Kennblätter fremden Geräts". I think I had a German capture report from 1941/1942 but I can't find it anymore in the thousands of documents.

Tokarev made lots of prototype SVT carbines (both semi and full auto) but none were ever accepted for production. Some that saw a limited production, maybe a handful, could have been pressed into service because of the extreme rifle shortage (similar to the trials sniper rifles that saw service in 1941/42), but the Germans probably never actually encountered one.

Jordan, sounds nice and I would like to see the picture of General Patton.

It's good that you mention the SVT40 rifle, yesterday I thought about it. I was surprised because they were quite popular on the Eastern front and you can see them in many pictures, but I couldn't find a single one in the stock list (in 1944) and I was checking some Divisions.
In "D 50/1 Kennblätter fremden Geräts" from March 20, 1941 it's listed. The SVT40 has the German name "Selbstladegewehr 259 (r)" and with scope "Selbstlade-Zielfernrohrgewehr 260 (r). I have a order from the General Army Communications May 7, 1942 and there they describe how to zero in the rifle and which ammunition they had to use. If you are interested, then I could translate it in the next weeks.

It isn't really surprising since production numbers plummetted in 1942-1945, and most captured in 1941 were likely used up by 1944. The production of SVT40 was actually cancelled in May 1942. The Russians could not produce the complicated semiautomatic rifle fast enough to replace the losses in 1941, and the Army was deeply disappointed in the SVT's performance. As a sniper rifle, there were first shot accuracy problems that were never fully corrected, and it was not popular with soldiers who often discarded them in favor of simpler rifles and PPSh.

Production continued until January 1945 in the form of the AVT, the full auto capable version, but the Army hated it. I have a cioy of a report somewhere from the Red Army's proving grounds in May 1942 which unequivocally states the AVT was tested and found unsuitable for service and the Army didn't want it. However, there was a shortage of light machine guns so the rifles were produced anyway. I haven't seen much evidence the Army issued them in any serious numbers after 1942.

All of that said, I have seen a February 1945 depot inventory which shows tens of thousands of semi autos, SVT38/40 and a handful of AVS36, still in stock. No snipers or carbines listed though.

 

[capt14k]

I am very late to this party, but I didn't realize there was discussion of the SVT40 going on in here...



Tokarev made lots of prototype SVT carbines (both semi and full auto) but none were ever accepted for production. Some that saw a limited production, maybe a handful, could have been pressed into service because of the extreme rifle shortage (similar to the trials sniper rifles that saw service in 1941/42), but the Germans probably never actually encountered one.



It isn't really surprising since production numbers plummetted in 1942-1945, and most captured in 1941 were likely used up by 1944. The production of SVT40 was actually cancelled in May 1942. The Russians could not produce the complicated semiautomatic rifle fast enough to replace the losses in 1941, and the Army was deeply disappointed in the SVT's performance. As a sniper rifle, there were first shot accuracy problems that were never fully corrected, and it was not popular with soldiers who often discarded them in favor of simpler rifles and PPSh.

Production continued until January 1945 in the form of the AVT, the full auto capable version, but the Army hated it. I have a cioy of a report somewhere from the Red Army's proving grounds in May 1942 which unequivocally states the AVT was tested and found unsuitable for service and the Army didn't want it. However, there was a shortage of light machine guns so the rifles were produced anyway. I haven't seen much evidence the Army issued them in any serious numbers after 1942.

All of that said, I have seen a February 1945 depot inventory which shows tens of thousands of semi autos, SVT38/40 and a handful of AVS36, still in stock. No snipers or carbines listed though.

That is what I always thought as well regarding the SVT Carbine. Most found here were made in Canada or Upstate NY. So why would the Germans have a document and model number on it? Could it be because they got a hold of the Russian plans for the Carbine, or managed to acquire one of the prototype Carbines?


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[RyanE]

That is what I always thought as well regarding the SVT Carbine. Most found here were made in Canada or Upstate NY. So why would the Germans have a document and model number on it? Could it be because they got a hold of the Russian plans for the Carbine, or managed to acquire one of the prototype Carbines?


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D50/1 is an intelligence document. It's stuff they know about, not necessarily stuff they have laid hands on. Its possible that they may have captured an example or two.

 

[Stephan98k]

Thank you very much for your interesting contributions and to Jordan, for the photo!

@RyanE
In the future I should move these SVT-40 documents and in general the Beutewaffen to the Beutewaffen sub-forum.

 

[Warrior1354]

Thank you very much for your interesting contributions and to Jordan, for the photo!

@RyanE
In the future I should move these SVT-40 documents and in general the Beutewaffen to the Beutewaffen sub-forum.

Stephen for how much you have done for the forum with this info and the time you have taken too do all of these translations of documents. I wish I could do more then post this one photo!

 

[mike radford]

Great info, and I am not surprised. Russians are ruthless. I have many reasons for not collecting Russian Weapons, unless used by the Finns against them.

The war in the East became ruthless in general. Stalingrad was a good example and both sides had to live and fight like animals, and for their life.

The Japanese were not especially kind either. Those "surrendering" often used a grenade or something to take out the folks trying to take them prisoner. The dropped B. Plague flees on the Chinese and slaudered them in Nanking. Go there, I have, very unsettling. The fact they were held less accountable for war crimes than the Germans is another crime IMO.

 

[Stephan98k]

The war in the East became ruthless in general. Stalingrad was a good example and both sides had to live and fight like animals, and for their life.

The Japanese were not especially kind either. Those "surrendering" often used a grenade or something to take out the folks trying to take them prisoner.

With my statements I don't want to better represent the German soldiers, we all know on the German side there were crimes against humanity. I have German and Russian documents and could observe the following:
Operation Barbarossa started June 22, 1941 and the Commissar Order (Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars) was issued by the German High Command already June 6, 1941. Since the campaign started, there are many examples and the order was executed very often, in some cases there was written in the daily reports of the German units "Political Commissars got treated" and in other reports very clear "Political Commissars got shot".
The German soldiers was shocked about the cruel treatment of German prisoner of war and I have early reports about it. As example a report by 56th Infantry Division of June 26, 1941 says: "Wounded German soldiers again murdered or heavily mutilated. Eyes cut out, nailed to the floor with bayonets, the genitals were cut off and put in the mouth etc."
On the other side the German soldiers were admonished that the Russian soldiers should be treated humanely, that the Political Commissars are responsible for crimes. I have examples of German soldiers who didn't adhere to the warning and beat Russian soldiers. But these German officers and soldiers who beat or even shot the Russian POW got a court martial. They came to penal unit, prison and some got capital punishment.
Another example by 298th Infantry Division of July 28, 1941: "Special incident: 1 Russian officer and 15 Russian soldiers were shot by Pi. Batl. near "Hill 211" in reprisal, because one of the Russians who had surrendered subsequently shot a Gefreiter snivellingly in the back."

The war in the East became ruthless, nevertheless some orders and documents surprise me. A good example is "Wages of prisoner of war" by Army High Command (OKH/GenStdH/GenQu/IVa VII,2 Az. 961 Nr. I/R/4000/44). The order is about wages for non-russian and Russian prisoner of war. Note, it's for standard POW and not Hiwi (voluntary assistant).
"1. ) Prisoners of war who work full-time and adequate receive daily a wage of
a) 0,70 Reichsmark = non-russian prisoners of war
b) 0,50 Reichsmark = Russian prisoners of war
2. ) The most industrious and efficient prisoners of war may be granted wage supplements according to the nature and values of their work, namely:
a) For simple work that can be done after a short instruction - Wage supplement per working day: up to 0,20 Reichsmark for non-russian and 0,10 Reichsmark for Russian prisoners of war
b) For work requiring a certain level of expertise and working knowledge - Wage supplement per working day: up to 0,40 Reichsmark for non-russian and 0,20 Reichsmark for Russian prisoners of war
c) For specialist work requiring professional manual skills or professional knowledge - Wage supplement per working day: up to 0,80 Reichsmark for non-russian and 0,40 Reichsmark for Russian prisoners of war
d) For difficult technical work, which requires good professional skills and knowledge, a learned profession and independent work - Wage supplement per working day: up to 1,20 Reichsmark for non-russian and 0,60 Reichsmark for Russian prisoners of war
3. ) Prisoners of war who do not perform full-fledged work (for example, out of physical weakness or unwillingness to work) or who are only employed on an hourly basis receive a correspondingly reduced wage. Supplements are not eligible.
The minimum wage is to be paid per working day: 0,30 Reichsmark for non-russian and 0,15 Reichsmark for Russian prisoners of war

Now we are far from the topic, in my next post I will return to the original topic.

 

[chasdev]

Great info, and I am not surprised. Russians are ruthless. I have many reasons for not collecting Russian Weapons, unless used by the Finns against them.

The war in the East became ruthless in general. Stalingrad was a good example and both sides had to live and fight like animals, and for their life.

The Japanese were not especially kind either. Those "surrendering" often used a grenade or something to take out the folks trying to take them prisoner. The dropped B. Plague flees on the Chinese and slaudered them in Nanking. Go there, I have, very unsettling. The fact they were held less accountable for war crimes than the Germans is another crime IMO.

Not to mention the 8th Air force firebombing Dresden, straight up wholesale murder.

 

[Stephan98k]

K98k bolt stop shape change - Troop armorer & Army Weapon Workshops

Here is a order about the shape change of K98k bolt stop.


Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command - Berlin, February 6, 1939

120. Shape change of the bolt stop of the K 98 k.

1. To avoid damage to the uniform when the rifle is shouldered, the bolt stop of the K 98 k has to get reworked according to the instruction “Instructions for changing the bolt stop 1 E 1402 – 14” Drawing No. 01 D 3576

2. The rework has to be executed until April 1, 1939:

a) on the carbines of the troops by the troop armorer,

b) on the carbines of the H. Za. inventory by the H. Waffenwerkstätten (Army Weapon Workshops)

3. The “Instructions for changing the bolt stop 1 E 1402 – 14” Drawing No. 01 D 3576 can be ordered from Heereszeichnungenverwaltung (Army-Drawing-Administration) Berlin C 2, Klosterstr. 64.

The shape change will be added to the “Compilation of shape changes on small arms“ in the autumn of 1939.

O.K.H., January 24, 1939
---- 74 a/b ---- In 2 (VII).