Turd Alert bcd 41
- Thread starter mrfarb
- Start date
wow thats a bad one. Looks like he engraved the numbers with a chisel. lol.
grimlin13
Senior Member
I`ve seen a lot of stuff sold by this seller over the years. Some good and some bad. The guy has had some beautiful S84/98 bayonets and K98k`s. Back when I first got into K98s and didn`t really know that much about K98s or their accessories (still learning), I thought I could get what I needed from him. I bought a K98 sling and an original " German K98 cleaning kit with oiler" The sling was good, a little dark, but real. The oringinal "German K98 cleaning kit with oiler" wasn`t good. It wasn`t an rg34, not really sure what it is and have never done any research on it. Someday I`ll post pictures of it here.
Anyway,we need threads like this to help inform and educate the new collector. As has been stated here many,many times, you got to do research on what you plan to acquire. Don`t let that "first K98" fever put you into an uneducated buying frenzy.
Anyway,we need threads like this to help inform and educate the new collector. As has been stated here many,many times, you got to do research on what you plan to acquire. Don`t let that "first K98" fever put you into an uneducated buying frenzy.
USCS03
Senior Member
I know that New York is a big state and all but this guy has an inexhaustible supply of bringback items. Since he has been around for quite some time and has sold quite a few k98's how is it that he can't differentiate between a clear forgery and something legit! That is unless he is the one doing it!
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Trust me, he collects Mausers, he can tell, and knows exactly what is going on with each one...I have witnessed shenanigans first hand....
bjarne
Senior Member
I knew it..............
Cant stand people like that,making money on new collectors how dont know any better
So how do we stop that profit faker?
Cant stand people like that,making money on new collectors how dont know any better
USCS03
Senior Member
Gotta love douchebags! I have seen plenty of fake crap at shows and it always makes me laugh especially when I know the guy and know that he knows what he is peddling. They tend to get angry when called on the carpet. I see this plenty in the M1 Carbine collecting world. Lots of humping going on there as well.
mauser99
Senior Member
I don't own a copy but, I would suggest you buy Bob-in-Ohio's cd. That is a visual library of serial number stamps ect. "The Font" I.E. the shape of the numeral or letter is the most important thing to study. All the makers used different fonts. Some rifles will have 3 or 4 different sizes and fonts on the bolt ect. It's a big challenge to remember all this stuff. If you good with mauser made products then look at a stery or Berlin Lubeck it's a totally different animal and can throw you off.. All know what the bolt flat finisn and band finish are suppose to look like. This will tell you if the item has been scrubbed and renumbered. There are different levels or counterfeits. Some are easy to spot some very difficult. Just like with coins or currency. Some are easy to spot others not so much. Or high end art. It's the level of the craftsman. The highest level right now is waffenwerke Pittsburg and his bolt service. He can duplicate fonts and scripts and is very good. But, the work is engraved not stamped. But, if white paint is used to highlight the numbers this hides the valley of the digit where you need to look. I stopped whiting in my rifles years beck but, this was always popular with collectors and is accepted to a degree. "BE very aware of this".
This BCD41 is a low end joke to most of us. But, this was the type of fake that was fooling us in the early nineties.
This is analysis of the fake rifle compared to two original rifles from 1941 Gustloff production:
UPPER BAND
Look at the original and notice the sharpness of the lines and the edge wear on the corners. Also, look at how sharp and clear the numbering is on the original band. The fake band lacks the sharp edges and high-end wear, the numbering is not sharp, but blurry--it looks engraved.
BOLT BODY
On the original bolt face there are circular striations from the milling operation--this is common for BCD production-especially mid-to-late war. The bolt face has a worn spot from where it hits the rear receiver bridge. The numbers are sharp but uneven, some parts of the number are deeper than others as it was struck that way. There is wear on the edges of the bolt. On the fake, you can see it is flat as they had to grind the surface to renumber it. Still, they did not fully remove the previous numbers--you can see something behind the "2". There is no edge wear and no strike point from the bolt hitting the receiver--again, the numbers look engraved.
RECEIVER TOP
Look at the striations on the top of the receiver--there are fine lines from the swift turning operation. Gustloff receivers were not polished: there is also high edge wear. Now look at the fake: it is polished and bright blue: it's been refinished.
BUTTPLATE
As others have noted, the buttplate should have the number and the suffix. The fake one is missing the suffix--it is also clear the numbers are stamped over something else.
LOWER BAND
This is faked pretty well. If you look at the raised, oval area under the sling bar, you will see the fake is totally white and lower than the original: they had to take material off to renumber it. The edges on the fake are more rounded than the original.
STOCK RIGHT
Nothing on these markings screams "fake" to me and the surrounding finish does not look sanded down and renumbered. Even fake rifles will sometimes use original parts.
TRIGGER GUARD
There are variations among Gustloff rifles because they made some parts themselves and used subcontractors for others. However, for 41 production, the trigger guard consistently comes from the same subcontractor based on the examples I have seen. In addition, on the fake, look at the flat and smooth surface: they had to grind the old markings off and still managed to leave some behind (look at the "9"). The fake E/749 stamp they used is nowhere close to the original in quality.
STOCK CHANNEL
On nice original rifles the inside of the stock will be white like the original one here. With heavy use and wear, it will darken, but the wood in the stock will have a rough feel because they did not sand this area. When you fake them, you have to remove what was there and this often leaves a smooth feel. It is difficult to tell with the fake because the picture is bad; however, you can see there is something behind the "O". Also, if you look to the right you will see a darkened area from heat generated by firing the rifle. This does not naturally fade into the lighter area of the stock, indicating some of the wood surface was removed in this area.
BOLT SHROUD
View attachment 66074View attachment 66075
The fake is clearly over-stamped.
KEEL
Even on high condition rifles, the keel will be dinged because when a rifle was carried by its sling, the keel was the part that was hanging to the side of the soldier and would bump into things. Notice on the fake that the keel is perfectly smooth--not a scratch on it. This is because this area was refinished.
NOTES
There are many other things wrong with the rifle, but this provides enough of an analysis of what to look for to tell original vs. fake. For those of you who do not use it already, I recommend the WW2 weapons forum Auction section:
http://ww2weaponsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?22-Auctions&
If there is a fake, it will typically be posted there and discussed.
If a new collector is serious about learning all of the nuances of these rifles, I recommend they buy the Karem/Steve's books, use the picture library here and most important, build a picture library from the auctions. I obtained all the pictures of original BCD 41 rifles I used here from auction pictures stored on my computer. I organize them in folders in a year/maker/letter block/serial number format. For example, "1941 Gustloff Werke L 4001". Whenever I am not sure about a rifle, I can compare it to known examples in my picture library. This requires an investment of time, but it pays off by not having to learn by buying fakes.
Sources
Gunbroker 173424318
Gunbroker 317203422
UPPER BAND
Look at the original and notice the sharpness of the lines and the edge wear on the corners. Also, look at how sharp and clear the numbering is on the original band. The fake band lacks the sharp edges and high-end wear, the numbering is not sharp, but blurry--it looks engraved.
BOLT BODY
On the original bolt face there are circular striations from the milling operation--this is common for BCD production-especially mid-to-late war. The bolt face has a worn spot from where it hits the rear receiver bridge. The numbers are sharp but uneven, some parts of the number are deeper than others as it was struck that way. There is wear on the edges of the bolt. On the fake, you can see it is flat as they had to grind the surface to renumber it. Still, they did not fully remove the previous numbers--you can see something behind the "2". There is no edge wear and no strike point from the bolt hitting the receiver--again, the numbers look engraved.
RECEIVER TOP
Look at the striations on the top of the receiver--there are fine lines from the swift turning operation. Gustloff receivers were not polished: there is also high edge wear. Now look at the fake: it is polished and bright blue: it's been refinished.
BUTTPLATE
As others have noted, the buttplate should have the number and the suffix. The fake one is missing the suffix--it is also clear the numbers are stamped over something else.
LOWER BAND
This is faked pretty well. If you look at the raised, oval area under the sling bar, you will see the fake is totally white and lower than the original: they had to take material off to renumber it. The edges on the fake are more rounded than the original.
STOCK RIGHT
Nothing on these markings screams "fake" to me and the surrounding finish does not look sanded down and renumbered. Even fake rifles will sometimes use original parts.
TRIGGER GUARD
There are variations among Gustloff rifles because they made some parts themselves and used subcontractors for others. However, for 41 production, the trigger guard consistently comes from the same subcontractor based on the examples I have seen. In addition, on the fake, look at the flat and smooth surface: they had to grind the old markings off and still managed to leave some behind (look at the "9"). The fake E/749 stamp they used is nowhere close to the original in quality.
STOCK CHANNEL
On nice original rifles the inside of the stock will be white like the original one here. With heavy use and wear, it will darken, but the wood in the stock will have a rough feel because they did not sand this area. When you fake them, you have to remove what was there and this often leaves a smooth feel. It is difficult to tell with the fake because the picture is bad; however, you can see there is something behind the "O". Also, if you look to the right you will see a darkened area from heat generated by firing the rifle. This does not naturally fade into the lighter area of the stock, indicating some of the wood surface was removed in this area.
BOLT SHROUD
View attachment 66074View attachment 66075
The fake is clearly over-stamped.
KEEL
Even on high condition rifles, the keel will be dinged because when a rifle was carried by its sling, the keel was the part that was hanging to the side of the soldier and would bump into things. Notice on the fake that the keel is perfectly smooth--not a scratch on it. This is because this area was refinished.
NOTES
There are many other things wrong with the rifle, but this provides enough of an analysis of what to look for to tell original vs. fake. For those of you who do not use it already, I recommend the WW2 weapons forum Auction section:
http://ww2weaponsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?22-Auctions&
If there is a fake, it will typically be posted there and discussed.
If a new collector is serious about learning all of the nuances of these rifles, I recommend they buy the Karem/Steve's books, use the picture library here and most important, build a picture library from the auctions. I obtained all the pictures of original BCD 41 rifles I used here from auction pictures stored on my computer. I organize them in folders in a year/maker/letter block/serial number format. For example, "1941 Gustloff Werke L 4001". Whenever I am not sure about a rifle, I can compare it to known examples in my picture library. This requires an investment of time, but it pays off by not having to learn by buying fakes.
Sources
Gunbroker 173424318
Gunbroker 317203422
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I agree, BiO cd is a good place to start, especially if you like computers more than books... it is probably a better place to start than buying Backbone for a new collector.
It would go a long way to establishing a computer database, the single best tool for rifle evaluation, - buy the cd, create a database on your computer, add to the database with rifles from the forums that are "known" and authentic and it will create a foundation for you to make your own opinions, eventually you will grasp what is authentic over time.
It would go a long way to establishing a computer database, the single best tool for rifle evaluation, - buy the cd, create a database on your computer, add to the database with rifles from the forums that are "known" and authentic and it will create a foundation for you to make your own opinions, eventually you will grasp what is authentic over time.
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I agree and a good evaluation, - I would add that the TG is an impossibility, Gustloff didn’t make any and all known "milled" used by Gustloff Weimar were made by Brehmer, Leipzig ("d" code, waffenamt e/221) the left acceptance should be in all cases e/221 over the "d" sub-contractor code (for the part), the right waffenamt should always be e/749, bcd inspector for the assembly (they used e/46 for a short range in 1939, some 337/39 will have e/221 - e/46 inspection, after that until 1945 they used only e/749).
While the stock has the right pattern, it is not comparable to an original rifle, the lower waffenamt on the RS should be smaller, different and the e/H is not exactly right. Also, there is some doubts to whether Gustloff Weimar made 98k stocks at all, they did make G/K43 stocks, possibly some 98k stocks, but no 100% clear example has surfaced to my satisfaction. Most are naturally covered in e/749 for the assembly was obviously done by Gustloff, but most have the obvious Menzel code (c) and waffenamt along the lower buttstock because most, if not all, were made by them.
As for Larry, he sells good rifles and a good number of bad ones, a new collector would do well to avoid his auctions, but he does have one of the best selections of scarce German rifles on GB, - I personally have nothing against him, he does an adequate number of pictures and I do not judge rifles by the text in the auction, most sellers know nothing about German rifles or history, including LR's text, which are almost without fail pure nonsense and useless information picked up from internet gossip.. If a seller does an appropriate number of pictures, I place the responsibility on the buyer, not the seller; - LR is a seller who is at least 50% honest, which means he is 100% more honest than the Obama administration, so he is far safer to deal with... plus he doesn’t make (coerce) you buy a defective product.
While the stock has the right pattern, it is not comparable to an original rifle, the lower waffenamt on the RS should be smaller, different and the e/H is not exactly right. Also, there is some doubts to whether Gustloff Weimar made 98k stocks at all, they did make G/K43 stocks, possibly some 98k stocks, but no 100% clear example has surfaced to my satisfaction. Most are naturally covered in e/749 for the assembly was obviously done by Gustloff, but most have the obvious Menzel code (c) and waffenamt along the lower buttstock because most, if not all, were made by them.
As for Larry, he sells good rifles and a good number of bad ones, a new collector would do well to avoid his auctions, but he does have one of the best selections of scarce German rifles on GB, - I personally have nothing against him, he does an adequate number of pictures and I do not judge rifles by the text in the auction, most sellers know nothing about German rifles or history, including LR's text, which are almost without fail pure nonsense and useless information picked up from internet gossip.. If a seller does an appropriate number of pictures, I place the responsibility on the buyer, not the seller; - LR is a seller who is at least 50% honest, which means he is 100% more honest than the Obama administration, so he is far safer to deal with... plus he doesn’t make (coerce) you buy a defective product.
bjarne
Senior Member
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
So how do we stop that profit faker?
Cant stand people like that,making money on new collectors how dont know any better
As Paul said, probably not too much, other than spread the word...also as Paul said, he sells rifles that are just fine, amongst the rifles that are hump jobs....I do know he is misleading in descriptions, as he bought a rifle another buddy and myself turned down because of lots of issues, he bought it cheap, and we talked to him about it...he knew all the issues we turned it down for...yet when it appeared on GB a few weeks later, it was described as 100% original, matching and just as it left the factory....yes, if it left the factory heavily sanded stock with a poly finish and pimp shined and ground un-numbered bolt...it went for well over $1200...
It is definitely buyer beware, for the most part, he does do plenty of pics, so if one gets burned, its going to be ones own fault...
grimlin13
Senior Member
So,you think s.reisel uses white paint on his neverending supply of mint S84/98 bayonets for this purpose? It would well be worth it as the price for a mint matching S84/98 continues to go up
He is the author of the floorplate variations thread:
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?11408-Floor-plate-Variations
CD for K98 Reference =
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...e-CD-Volume-II
email => K98@bobinohio.com
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?11408-Floor-plate-Variations
CD for K98 Reference =
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...e-CD-Volume-II
email => K98@bobinohio.com
