Questionable SS Helmets
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Poor bastard selling his now worthless Sham-pain-ruin . But wait ! It has a hicks COA the SS master ... Oh wait.... former master.
if anyone is interested its only 5500.00 usd....
Its think its real because my books says it real. My book says its real because I think its real. I think its real because my book says its real. My book says its real because I think its real.....
That helmet was a vet buy out of Atlanta GA. 100% original...just sayin
This is what I can say with 100% certainty because I saw it and I know it:
1) Back in the 80s and perhaps early 90s there was a fellow with sheets of original SS decals he sold out of a briefcase at the large shows. Where are all of these decals as since him I don't think I've seen more than a couple of the many (at least more than 50) sold on their own.
2) Back during that same time we did not have a concept or understanding of lot numbers and dates, thus people applying SS decals to helmets used M.42 no decal helmets, which we now know were too late to have had SS decals applied.
3) Bill Maertz was a prolific "restorer" of German helmets and has posted a number of times that he "restored" many (he said hundreds) of helmets for many clients by properly applying original SS decals to them. His position was (and is) that applying an original SS decal to an original German shell is a restoration.
M45
Well-known member
Waffen-SS Foreign Volunteer M42
SKU: Ws95$9,000.00
This is an outstanding example of a service-used waffen ss helmet, CKL64, factory issue late war, with a period field applied CA Pocher runic shield on the left side. This Pocher is beautiful and has been there forever. As is well documented in the photographic record, foreign SS units were wearing these helmets with insignia from 1943 until the last stages of the war. Since as we know the CA Pocher shield was the standard shield issued by unit level supply, this is exactly what this helmet is supposed to be. This one was purchased by the seller from The Ruptured Duck, and has his COA. It is also named in the liner and could be researched. The name could be Dutch or German. A superb and complete example with excellent provenance, my lifetime COA accompanies the sale.
No mention of lot #, but it appears to be 4752, which is 1201 lots past the last factory ET-SS helmet at lot# 3551, well past the factory decal drop order of August 28, 1943.
Being foreign volunteer, it has the correct decal in the correct location. But since many CKL ND helmets were brought back in addition to many Pocher-SS decals, how do we know just when this decal was applied- '40s, '50s, '60s ?
The helmet comes with a COA but apparently no unquestioned vet provenance,
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mauser john
Active member
i got a ss helmet ,had for years
M45
Well-known member
M42 NS66 D552
No hard evidence that the NS factory produced M40 or M42 DD Field Police helmets. This is a high lot number that fits in the no-decal range. I have also seen a helmet with the same markings with the Sham Pain SS ruins.
If this was field applied (which many field police helmets had field applied decals) why is it in pristine unissued condition ?
No hard evidence that the NS factory produced M40 or M42 DD Field Police helmets. This is a high lot number that fits in the no-decal range. I have also seen a helmet with the same markings with the Sham Pain SS ruins.
If this was field applied (which many field police helmets had field applied decals) why is it in pristine unissued condition ?
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M45
Well-known member
Foreign Made or Variant SS Helmet | Collector to Collector Militaria
www.collectortocollectormilitaria.com
Foreign Made or Variant SS Helmet | Collector to Collector Militaria
Foreign Made or Variant SS Helmet
This helmet has been in several high end collections over the years and appears on page 182 of Kelly Hicks book "SS Helmets". Here are a couple of scans of this helmet since Kelly takes better pictures then I do. The exterior paint on this helmet is in fine condition, it just shows minor signs of age and wear. It matches the decal pretty well rating well into the 90+ percent range. On the interior, I can not make out the maker and size stamp but I am pretty sure this is an EF shell. It has a size 58 leather liner so Size 66 shell. The liner is in very nice condition and does show some nice wear, just enough to know this helmet was worn, I like it! It is complete with a chin strap.
Price: $6,750.00
SKU: SSC
This helmet has been sitting unsold for awhile now. It has been in several high-end collections over the years, is published in kelly's book, a "variant decal", maker/lot#/size stamps unreadable, paint & liner in excellent condition (nearly unussued - 90+%) matching the condition of the decal, interesting.
The SS decal chart is from a foreign website, but it shows the basics. Of course there were other period SS decals applied that are not on this chart, but they are very rare, such as the fatrunes -SS decal and the mirror SS runes (Austrian mfg I believe). This "variant" decal featured is similar to the blocky ET SS runes. Could it be the infamous Sham-pain SS runes ??
The foreign context is most probable in the origin of this runic shield. B Shea
Some unknown big names associated with this helmet (high end collections) as well as vetting by 3 dealers.
What might DougB tell us about a helmet like this ?
6-16-2009
"The fakes that are now being called variants are very dangerous to collectors.
This is why I will fight hard any variant claim be proven with facts, logical explanation, and now scientific testing (XRFacts)." addition mine
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M45
Well-known member
M42 Waffen-SS single decal combat helmet, « ckl64 »
M42 Waffen-SS single decal combat helmet, « ckl64 »
M42 Waffen-SS single decal combat helmet, « ckl64 »
Very nice M1942 Waffen-SS single decal combat helmet. The helmet is a « ckl64 », the lot number is not readable. Exterior of the helmet is in very good shape. Showing light combat use. Scraps, scratches and some paint loss along the top. Factory paint finish rates in at over 90%. The decal rates in nicely at over 95% with some scuffs and scarps. The helmets interior is in very good condition. Pig skin leather liner is complete, blue ink stamped with the size, original drawstring is also present. Comes with its original chinstrap, nicely marked with RBNr « 0/1151/0005 ». For an unknown reason the liner was removed and put back. A very nice example of a M42 Waffen-SS helmet.
Ref:LMA09277
Here is a good helmet to test our SS helmet knowledge. Is this SS helmet authentic ?
We know the liner has been out as per the description. Was this SS decal period applied ?
Lot number would have helped out, but it is essentially 3XX7, or basically unreadable. 3037, for example, would be in the SS decal range, but 3637 would be out of the range. Lot# 3551 shows the last known factory produced SS helmet.
M42 ckl66 3551 SD SS NO-TILT ZSH RTGG ET-SS STRAP-RB-Nr. 0/0365/0012 ESTONIA-KINDERHEIMHOHE LAST KNOWN ET-SS DECAL
Some things to consider:
-was the lot number purposely defaced and then hit with touch-up paint ?
- paint color appears to be a darker shade of the earlier green gray, indicating possibly post decal era.
-the front of the helmet shows obvious paint runs, more commonly seen on later production helmets.
-the SS decal is warped, possibly indicating a novice (postwar) decal applicator.
-the right rim of the helmet is wider than the left rim, a feature sometimes seen on latewar helmet production.
No one factor is necessarily the kiss-of-death, but what about everything combined ?
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M45
Well-known member
ratisbon's | Waffen-SS M40 double decal helmet - Q66 | DISCOVER GENUINE MILITARIA, ANTIQUES & COINS
An unworn Waffen-SS M40 helmet issued with both decals.The paint to the inside is absolutely fresh and the lining shows no signs of wear and must be the softest we have ever had. "Febr.44" dated. It
www.ratisbons.com
Description
An unworn Waffen-SS M40 helmet issued with both decals.
The paint to the inside is absolutely fresh and the lining shows no signs of wear and must be the softest we have ever had. "Febr.44" dated. It is size "58" stamped and still holds the original cord. It looks to be re-attached to the shell. One prong of one rivet is missing. Also, there is different paint on the rivets. However, it matches the shell nicely.
"2418" lot numbered and "Q66" marker and size marked to the reverse of the shell.
Over 95% of the original fieldgrey factory paint. The runes were removed. The rune decal is about 35%. The swastika decal is about 95%.
Soft and unworn chin strap. "1944" deated and clearly stamped with the "Reichsbetriebsnummer".
NOT SOLD
BUY WITH A 0% BUYER’S PREMIUM
PRICE
$ 5.142,50
M40 Q66 S2418 ND RTGG 43ZSH RM
These decals should be Quist runes and Quist party shield if factory applied, but they both appear to be Pochers. This indicates after factory (field or postwar application IMO).
Decal application errors. The party shield is stretched, a red flag indicating likely novice (postwar) applicator. The SS Pocher shield adhered very poorly with likely air bubbles underneath decal (novice applicator).
The lot number list shows a no-decal green-gray with this same lot#.
The liner has been out, as per the ad, with broken prong, non-matching pins and a Feb 44 dated liner.
The paint underneath the SS shield perfectly matches the outside paint, indicating the SS runes has not been on this helmet that long.
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Cav Trooper 19D
Scouts Out!
Excellent detective work. So, would a Quist with an "S" lot number prefix be too late in the war for a single decal? I would've assumed too late in the wat for a double decal as shown on this helmet.Waffen-SS M40 double decal helmet - Q66ratisbon's | Waffen-SS M40 double decal helmet - Q66 | DISCOVER GENUINE MILITARIA, ANTIQUES & COINS
An unworn Waffen-SS M40 helmet issued with both decals.The paint to the inside is absolutely fresh and the lining shows no signs of wear and must be the softest we have ever had. "Febr.44" dated. It
Description
An unworn Waffen-SS M40 helmet issued with both decals.
The paint to the inside is absolutely fresh and the lining shows no signs of wear and must be the softest we have ever had. "Febr.44" dated. It is size "58" stamped and still holds the original cord. It looks to be re-attached to the shell. One prong of one rivet is missing. Also, there is different paint on the rivets. However, it matches the shell nicely.
"2418" lot numbered and "Q66" marker and size marked to the reverse of the shell.
Over 95% of the original fieldgrey factory paint. The runes were removed. The rune decal is about 35%. The swastika decal is about 95%.
Soft and unworn chin strap. "1944" deated and clearly stamped with the "Reichsbetriebsnummer".
NOT SOLD
BUY WITH A 0% BUYER’S PREMIUM
PRICE
$ 5.142,50
M40 Q66 S2418 ND RTGG 43ZSH RM
These decals should be Quist runes and Quist party shield if factory applied, but they both appear to be Pochers. This indicates after factory (field or postwar application IMO).
Decal application errors. The party shield is stretched, a red flag indicating likely novice (postwar) applicator. The SS Pocher shield adhered very poorly with likely air bubbles underneath decal (novice applicator).
The lot number list shows a no-decal green-gray with this same lot#.
The liner has been out, as per the ad, with broken prong, non-matching pins and a Feb 44 dated liner.
The paint underneath the SS shield perfectly matches the outside paint, indicating the SS runes has not been on this helmet that long.
M45
Well-known member
M40 Q66 S3440 SD SS 43ZSH RTGG Q-SS LAST KNOWN SD SS
Thanks. This is the last known S series SD SS helmet with confirmed Q-SS decal. The 1943 dated liner band seems to be consistent with the August 28, 1943 factory decal drop order. While some may assume that lower lot numberd helmets were in the 'decal era' and should therefore have decals, this Quist S series is different because many factory no-decal helmets are seen with lower lot numbers, indicating that large numbers of earlier S series helmets were not completed until after the decal drop order.
As far as factory double decal SS helmets in this series, no factory examples are confirmed, only those with Quist-SS runes paired with Pocher party shields, indicating likely field (or even postwar) modifications. If these were Quist factory DD SS helmets, they should logically sport the Quist party colors decal.
It is interesting to note that ET, Q and EF helmet factories continued to produce some DD SS helmets until November 1940 (ref: Goodapple Vol.II p.26).
M40 Q64 S0610 DD W/SS 43ZSH RM RTGG Q-SS, POCHER COLORS
M40 Q64 S0611 DD W/SS ZSH RM RTGG STRAP-ftb44 Q-SS, POCHER COLORS
M45
Well-known member
Probably similar to all other aspects of 3rd Reich collecting, one must essentially become an expert in each aspect one wants to collect in, or risk being burned. This is time consuming and expensive, but not as expensive as having a collection full of worthless fakes.
M40 Q66 S2418 ND RTGG 43ZSH RM
IMO, the above example was produced as a factory no-decal helmet after 8/28/43, and had original Pocher SS decals applied postwar, as well as a liner swap. Current value: the price for parts, or about $300-$400.
M40 Q66 S2418 ND RTGG 43ZSH RM
IMO, the above example was produced as a factory no-decal helmet after 8/28/43, and had original Pocher SS decals applied postwar, as well as a liner swap. Current value: the price for parts, or about $300-$400.
M45
Well-known member
GERMAN WWII SS MODEL 35 DOUBLE DECAL COMBAT HELMET.
Probably the best double decal M.35 we have ever owned, virtually unworn condition, manufactured by Quist, size 64 shell. This example matches every parameter needed to be happy on the originality of this helmet. The exterior shell in the light apple green of the 1939 period. The helmet has its correct domed stamp, which reads ‘ABGENOMINES’ with roman numeral IV with the date 1939 with below ‘BESCHAFFUNGSAMT FUR HEER U. MARINE’. The SS decal is the standard form of decal found on Quist double decal helmets with also matching Quist national party shield. The skull itself has one indentation on the reverse side surrounded by a small portion of rust, there is small rust bleed around the lower edge of the rim and other abrased areas but we would state that the paint finish remaining is 95% complete, virtually all of the paint finish complete to the three liner retaining rivet heads, which of course are in a slightly different hue of green than the main body. The liner shows signs of very minor wear use, beautiful light tan colour, clearly stamped ‘57’ with its original drawstring. On slightly pulling back the aluminium liner band the matching date of ‘1939’ can be seen. Complete with its correct M.35 square edged strap retaining posts. The batch number stamped into the rear skirt is ‘952’, chinstrap not present. A superb piece.
Code: 83338
The SS decal is the standard form of decal found on Quist double decal helmets with also matching Quist national party shield.
Quist factory SS decals have the bottoms of the runes BELOW the break of the shield.
Pocher SS decals have the bottoms of the runes EVEN with the break of the shield.
The SS decal on this helmet has the bottoms of the runes ABOVE the break of the shield. In other words, no such animal.
The party colors decal also appears to be an anomaly. It does not match Quist or Pocher party decals. Notice how high the white circle is to the top border ?
Besides all of that, the entire helmet has been subjected to a rust wash, apparently to tone everything down and give it some age.
This one had been sold, but I would imagine the prices was somewhere between 15-20K.
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M45
Well-known member
Very Nice M42 W-SS Helmet, with traces of former winter camo. Cames with a Kelly Hicks Certificate of autentification. 6900euros + shipping.
A SD SS helmet being sold on a forum. In the lot# list, this lot number has only no-decal (ND) helmets. Also, this is the EF M42 5-digit series. The only SS decals seen here are the EF-SS decal. The SS decal on this helmet is a Pocher-SS decal.
Paint appears to be a blue gray (ND Luftwaffe).
IMO this was a factory ND Luft blue gray helmet with Pocher SS decal applied after-factory. When was it applied - 40s, 50s, 60s 70s ?? Decal is pretty bright looking indicating a fairly recent application.
M42 EF64 16173 ND SLATE ZPG RMBS FT STRAP-O.REICHEL LENGEFELD/41 whitewash
M42 EF64 16173 BEAD ND SFDB-SATIN FINISH DARK BLUE RMBS
M42 EF66 16173 ND SLATE ZSH RMBS 9-43INK RBINK FT STRAP-RBNr.0/0360/0012
M42 EF66 16173 ND LUFT ZSH RMBS RTBG FT 59cm 40B&C-RIVET (ND LUFT BLUE/GRAY)
M42 EF66 16173 BEAD SDLS LUFTSCHUTZ SFDB-SATIN FINISH DARK BLUE RMBS
A SD SS helmet being sold on a forum. In the lot# list, this lot number has only no-decal (ND) helmets. Also, this is the EF M42 5-digit series. The only SS decals seen here are the EF-SS decal. The SS decal on this helmet is a Pocher-SS decal.
Paint appears to be a blue gray (ND Luftwaffe).
IMO this was a factory ND Luft blue gray helmet with Pocher SS decal applied after-factory. When was it applied - 40s, 50s, 60s 70s ?? Decal is pretty bright looking indicating a fairly recent application.
M42 EF64 16173 ND SLATE ZPG RMBS FT STRAP-O.REICHEL LENGEFELD/41 whitewash
M42 EF64 16173 BEAD ND SFDB-SATIN FINISH DARK BLUE RMBS
M42 EF66 16173 ND SLATE ZSH RMBS 9-43INK RBINK FT STRAP-RBNr.0/0360/0012
M42 EF66 16173 ND LUFT ZSH RMBS RTBG FT 59cm 40B&C-RIVET (ND LUFT BLUE/GRAY)
M42 EF66 16173 BEAD SDLS LUFTSCHUTZ SFDB-SATIN FINISH DARK BLUE RMBS
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Back in the day, the mid to late 80s, there was a guy who did the shows with a briefcase with original unapplied SS decals for sale. He had a pile of them. Hicks was around like any other table dealer then. Bill Maertz the helmet “restorer” has admitted applying many of these decals to mostly no decal helmets. I think Maertz claimed to have done “hundreds” of them and His method of application was as the originals, thus what he did was “restoration” not fakery.
Cav Trooper 19D
Scouts Out!
More like a disingenuous practice and far from "restoration" if that particular helmet never meant to have a decal and not knowing the branch of service. Shame that has muddied the water of genuine research sticking decals on ND helmets. Kind of happy to have some no decal helmets that never were touched. One still has the abgenommen done stamp in it. It's actually a reverse stamp SN66 6821 instead of NS66. I guess it's a known die flaw for some of that lot number