Questionable SS Helmets

[iron bender]

Helmet stories

A family friend of ours served with hq, 116th Inf. 29th Div during the Normandy campaign and on through Germany. He was a collector then, as was his father who served in WW1. I believe every item he had before he passed was suspect. A couple of nice police helmets he said he brought home included. On his shelf in his library sat a nice M1 fixed bale, well used helmet, with the 29th DI on the front, his name and numbers on interior, and a small map of places he had been on top. It was told that this was the helmet he wore at 8am, June 6th 1944, at Normandy beach, wore through the war, and sent home during a 2 week "no censure" period. I asked him about it probably 2 years before he died, and his response was hell no, we could never ship off company property. Someone painted up a surplus helmet for him in the 60's to replicate his helmet. Glad I asked, because the legend of this helmet would surely have sold it for over the top, HUGE money, once his family started selling off his collection. How many "original" GI painted helmets have you seen sell for stupid amounts of money? Especially medic helmets...

 

[gew98]

Well this lid was worn by the brother of a dear friend in the korean conflict. Lonnie ledford retired SGM - 1947 -1979. Was in the first group of GB's and did alot of time in SEA. Served in the 11th Abn Corps in ground combat in Korea. When he passed and his brother and my late friend ( Donald ledford Ret. SFC ) received a load of books and some rifles ,knives and this helmet he placed no value on the helmet and figured he could get $30 or so for it . When I handled it I told him this was americana and I sold it for him for $450. That was in 2011. Donald passed in feb 2012. His youngest brother was KIA vietnam , USMC danny ledford. Boy did that family serve and give.

 

[iron bender]

Surprised it only sold for $450. That's one sweet M1-C para helmet.

 

[gew98]

Surprised it only sold for $450. That's one sweet M1-C para helmet.

He took the first offer the internet provided. He was tickled pink it was more than $30...... I knew/know just enough about US para anything as much as I like dogs.

 

[M45]

Italian SS M35

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell_original_helmets.htm

Unusual and Interesting Italian-SS Combat Helmet. Here is one of the few original Italian SS helmets that may actually exist. The seller reports that a number of years back, when he first showed it to me, he had gotten it from the in-laws of his cousin. The father, named Davis, had served with Patton's 3rd Army which fought prominently throughout Italy. The veteran is long since passed and the family are not aware of other details. Along with this helmet came an unrelated small grouping of items that the vet had acquired during his tour of duty. This helmet is an SE66 M35 with a three digit batch number. The liner bears a 1938 date. The finish and original double decals (what remains of them) had been overpainted in a grey scheme that is sprayed, leaving overspray on the liner. These characteristics are dead-on original period and the paint color is the expected Italian color. The insignia consist of hand-applied SS runes, spaced closely but rendered in wide style; and on the foreign configuration side (left). On the right is a standing eagle holding a swastika. The liner is marked with a three- digit code of some sort, and there is a stamp in the leather: Aufkl. Gr. 12 (a recon unit). All in all an historic and intriguing helmet for the Foreign Volunteer collector.
Price is 4500 USD and comes with my certificate of lifetime guarantee of authenticity.

I have no doubt that this helmet is 100% authentic, but I believe it to be Volksstum, not Italian SS or foreign volunteer (not SS at all), modified in late 1944-45. Probably a DD Heer reissued late war with Volkssturm black paint and hand rendered insignias. I have seen other black reissues with painted, stenciled and scratched on insignias (SS, Swaztikas, eagles, even the word 'VOLKSSTURM' ) on the sides, front and top. I think you would be lucky to get $400 for this helmet, as late war reissues are not in high demand.

The Italians had their own Model 33 helmets. The Italian SS used those with either pocher SS decals (the premiere SS reissue decal) or handpainted insignias with a white background that mimicked an SS decal. (see Marzetti's Combat Helmets of the World)
Hand painted birdies and swaztikas are things seen on Volksstum helmets.

Patton also fought from France into Southern Germany to end the war.

 

[M45]

gunbroker goodies

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=494325308


SS German Helmet SS Badges SS Ring SS Watch Whit Death Head VERY VERY RARE! & Sharp Shooter Badge VERY RARE! SS Ring Death Head! & Car Zeiss Field Glasses! Hard To Find! Battle After Normandy!

Buy Now for $1,900.00

 

[M45]

http://grenadierauctions.hibid.com/...pattern--camo-helmet?group=3504&tab=2&apage=2

High Bid : 5,000.00 USD Reserve not met

Lot # : 499
Group - Category : Antiques & Collectibles - Militaria - Third Reich Headgear
Description :
Waffen-SS M-40 S/D "Normandy Pattern" Camo Helmet
Waffen-SS M-40 S/D "Normandy Pattern" Camouflage Combat Helmet. The helmet shell is marked "EF64" and features an outstanding, spray painted camouflage finish. The finish features light green, tan and reddish-brown spray painted patterns. The finish is approx. 98% with some light scuffs and abrasions from period use. The right side of the helmet shell features a sig-rune decal, which is complete, and intact. It has be left partially visible through the camouflage finish. The inside of the helmet features a smooth, factory painted field/gray finish around the inside apron, with the hand painted owner's name "Broder" in black, Gothic lettering. The helmet is complete with it's original, undamaged liner, drawstring and chinstrap. The liner rivets are untouched, and original to this helmet. The helmet has been vetted by Mr. Kelly Hicks. The overall condition is very good+ with light wear from period use.

Well distributed minor wear, which is unnatural, IMO. The 3 camo colors are off, especially the red-brown, SS decal difficult to discern under camo, but may be a thick-border Champagne SS as the runes are the blocky ET style and thick border on top edge is apparent.

 

[M45]

Champagne ss decal admission

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/ss-runic-decal-reference-section-167624/ (emphasis added)

Addendum to this decal post, Sept 21. 2015

This decal type family has been controversial for a number of years now. It is published yet some do not believe it to be real, many collectors who I deeply respect and have conversed with at length with on the subject. I believed them to be real because that is what it said in the reference books and my opinion was formed by the experience of others. However my opinion changed over the years as my experience and knowledge grew. Doing some further research I printed some thoughts in a thread by Shaun Winkler Error - German Helmet Walhalla (post 21) back in June of 2013 where I stated M42 ckl and M40 any shell type I had concerns but no conclusive proof. The fact that all M42 decals of this type were near mint, the runes tend to “float” in the shield, and there being 7 variants, was of great concern however.


Well this month I believe I found the proof and confirmation that I need for my comfort zone, that not just the M42 ckl and M40 shells, but all champagne decals which I believe now are in fact bad and are template painted sprayed fakes. I am sure this will raise the ire and objection of some who believe otherwise, especially as these have been extensively published. However a book is merely a snapshot in time, most are a decade old or older, and in the latest reference book by Ken N these NS decals are conspicuously absent. Advancements in digital magnification, studious databasing, internet knowledge sharing and detailed research means knowledge moves forward and what we thought to be true can change, as it has for me.


Of the core SS decals, the Q, Pocher, EF and ET there is no controversy and never has been. There is plenty of evidence to know what is real and what is not including decal to shell relationships, correct graphic styles, print methodology as well as construction. The NS (Champagne) rune has never had this sort of luxury, nobody knows where they were made, who made them, there have never been any loose ones to study, and they are found on all shell manufacturers and on reissues without rhyme nor reason. However they are prevalent on high lot number no decal M42’s and on NS M35 helmets in police lot number ranges with no discernible pattern. They have many “variants” and inconsistencies in the rune positions on same decals and they have a very sharp print and lack a cellulose base.


I am sure the subject matter will continue to be controversial but I felt the need to make an addendum to this thread I created as it is based on what I knew then and what I know and believe today. I do want to thank Ade for his assistance and cooperation in doing so, as sharing information is critical to keeping the hobby safe and growing.


I also know I departed this forum, and wish those who continue to participate here well. I now run the GHW2 forum with RoyA, and time with that, family and business, means I have to pick my poison so you will find me there if you wish to discuss further.


Thanks
Doug


A stunning admission by one of the leading SS helmet gurus. A complete reversal from his original stance, that Champane SS decals were period production/application. Now he believes the decals are all postwar fakes.
[all champagne decals which I believe now are in fact bad and are template painted sprayed fakes.]

These unissued M42 SD Champagne helmets were selling for upwards of $5000-$7000 per copy if I recall. If several hundred of these things are out there, that could mean up to a million dollars of fake SS helmets. Who is going to issue a refund for one million dollars?

 

[M45]

Coming Soon

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell_original_helmets.htm

Coming Soon.

 

[mauser99]

I don't think many CH rune helmets will be bought or sold after this point.. But, Im sure many law suits will be made..

Thanks to the guys who's due diligence paid off and technology finally caught up the to the C. rune and put it to bed once and for all..

 

[M45]

Mauser, I don't see how lawsuits would change anything. You would have to prove every element of your case. That means first proving the decals are bad, then proving that the seller knew they were bad, and proving that the seller intended to defraud. Sellers would simply say, "I though they were good, just like everyone else", which would essentially be true.

A deep investigation into who was behind CD creation may be the right direction, but this was decades ago. Those involved could be dead by now.

The government may just tell you, 'buyer beware. Now that you know they're bad, don't buy these helmets anymore."

 

[M45]

M40 Flat Black SS Helmet - Hand Rendered Insignia - ET66 - Lot # 1764

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/steel...and-rendered-insignia-et66-lot-1764-a-584514/

This is one I have had for about 10 years. It was the subject of one of my first topics here on WRF, but I can't find the topic in my content, and in any case, I think it is worth a re shoot. It is a former Luftwaffe shell, an ET66, lot number 1764. When it arrived I discovered that the seller had included 2 pages of a letter, dated June 13, 1987, from someone who had inspected the helmet. As it turns out, when I showed the helmet to Al Barrows shortly after it arrived, he recognized it immediately, as he was the one who had written the letter nearly 20 years earlier! His letter (the last 2 pictures in this post) describes the piece fairly well so I will defer to his analysis. Hope you like it, Jim G.

It appears to be another late war Volkssturm reissue mis-identified as foreign SS volunteer.

 

[M45]

Ss decal identification pdf (ss-steel)

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell_original_helmets.htm

 

[M45]

http://www.blitzkriegmilitaria-forum.com/showthread.php?t=733&page=2

Note the point of the white shield (C-SS #1). It looks like shoddy template work.

Might as well look at a few more champagnes.

Yes, that is an Italian militaria site. You need to register.

If I recall, the decals below belong to the following helmets L-R:
NS M42, hkp M42, NS M35, CKL M42, same photo of #4.

C-SS #2 has a top border that is out of whack; thicker on the left side than the right. They got that template twisted a bit.

Notice the inconsistencies with the breaks on the white shield; C-SS #3 has hard (pointed) breaks at the sides while the others have smoother transitions.

Decal #2 has a hard right break, and a smooth left break.

 

[tjg79]

Is that an Italian militaria website? I can't get it to properly display.

Well, up until now, those observations didn't raise any alarm in the general lid collecting community.

 

[M45]

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/ss-m42-helmet-close-ups-264099/

A 'good copy' of a champagne decal on an M42 ckl66 3436.

The second decal is on an hkp68 4305 M42. It may be a champagne and one of the early mistakes due to the poor borders.

Thick borders and uneven borders seems to be a weakness of C-SS. Is it just me, or does the black on these seem to be just a bit too glossy and new looking?

 

[M45]

In the past, I had noticed two basic variations of C-SS; the thin border and the thick border. Doug has said there are 7 'variants'. I certainly hope that he clarifies these 7 variations, but I am beginning to see some more variations myself. While that last 'decal' does not seem to have the champagne hue, it appears to be a template, spray painted example nonetheless. While the term 'champagne-SS' is being used to describe these, there appears to be other template examples with distinctly white backgrounds that are a part of all of this nonsense, no doubt. I would not be surprised if the variations not only consisted of thick and thin borders (straight, uneven) but also variations in the shield composition (white vs. champagne).

Although the time period for C-SS origination may have been in the early-mid 1970s, their production may have continued for several decades after that. This, IMO, points to a smaller operation (fewer persons involved); C-SS slowly trickling into the collecting community through specific channels over the decades as C-SS helmets were completed. The 7 variations may show the differences in the way the handful of 'artists' plied their trade or could be evidence of the evolution of C-SS as different techniques and paint mixtures were experimented with.

 

[tjg79]

If there are white shield variations, then all SS lid insignia should be inspected for indications of the decal celluloid/cellulose base.

 

[M45]

I suspect that there are a wide variety of fake SS decals out there, such as the round-bottom fake.

I have also noticed that some fakes have damage/chipping in key areas, such as the bottom, to disguise flaws. In this case a C-SS with possibly shoddy template work.

I think a good strategy for SS decals (as well as all decaled helmets for that matter) is to have a strong familiarity with the types of decals per factory and branch, combined with the decaled ranges per model and lot number.

 

[mrfarb]

I bet there are a slurry of "SS" helmets being pawned off at shows to disconnected collectors in the near future. I would also say if you could prove who did them there's a case that could be made for criminal proceedings?