Questionable SS Helmets

[M45]

Luft1; the lot number list tool is a very new tool. As such, the entire scope of exactly what it can and cannot do is not completely known. Generally speaking it can show ranges of factory decaled helmets. Helmets beyond these ranges should be scrutinized all the more because of this.

CKL marked M42s, for instance, have decal application to roughly the 3500 mark. After than no-decal helmets dominate. This information is merely a piece of the puzzle; one more tool in our tool bags to help us in our hobby.

This does not mean that the decals on CKL M42s below 3500 are all good. Fake decals can appear anywhere; on any maker, model, and series of helmets. Each helmet must stand on its own as per originality.

The lot number book by itself is not a magic wand to tell original from fake, but it can help in narrowing down decaled ranges with the factory decals that were known to be used.



Lets say we have an M42 CKL66 SD SS helmet (ET-SS decal) with a 5500 lot number, slate gray paint and a 1944 dated liner. How might we know if this helmet is original or postwar modified using the lot number list.

How might we know when the decal might have been applied? Is this a factory produced SS helmet during the third reich era, or a postwar modified helmet?

The ET-SS decal is indeed the correct decal to be found on factory CKL M42s, but sheets of these were taken home as war booty by returning GI's. Could our SD SS helmet have a postwar applied original SS decal?

The last decals seen on CKL M42 helmets are in the 3500 range. This range roughly corresponds to the 8/28/43 factory decal drop. (SS decals were officially applied for another two months until 11/1/43.)

So 1944 factory installed component dates (liner bands, rivets) would be incorrect for a 1943 finished helmet.

Our 5500 lot number is 2000 lots beyond our 3500 decal drop range. Lot#5500 is way out in no-decal territory with lots of other ND helmets.

Also, the last factory Heer, KM and SS helmets had green-gray paint. The slate gray color apparently had not yet arrived. So the Slate color on our SS 'decaled' helmet would also be incorrect.

Also, the ET-SS decal appears very bright and new when compared to the aged paint on our helmet. It jumps out at you, it is so new.

Conclusion: our CKL SS helmet with ET decal, 5500 lot number, 1944 dated liner and slate gray paint is likely a postwar altered helmet. An original ET-SS decal was postwar applied to a factory no-decal helmet.

Paint color is incorrect, lot number is incorrect, liner band date is incorrect, and the condition of the decal and helmet do not match.


So lot numbers are just one tool to be used in conjunction with much other experience.

 

[Luft1]

Got it! This was exactly what I was fishing for, so many thanks for taking the time to present such a detailed explanation

cheers

don

 

[Hambone]

Great info M45. I highly recommend Brian's German helmet lot number study. I use it often. If you are buying German helmets it is an indispensable reference, particularly for the price.

 

[M45]

You're welcome Don! Glad I could help.

HB, thanks for the commercial. I have one hardcopy version-6 left.

eBay item number: 321480162090


Version-7 is now available as a PDF file.

eBay item number: 321484627912

Version 7 hardcopy should be available late this month.

 

[Luft1]

Brian

Good news about V7. Are you planning to just post a short notice on the forum when its available?

 

[M45]

Will do......

 

[M45]

Late war ss helmet

S020869 M42 SINGLE DECAL HELMET.

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/WaffenSS/photos/S020869.html

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: The stamped sheet steel construction helmet retains about 90% of its slightly rough textured field-grey paint. The right side of the helmet has a first pattern, "SS" runic decal with black runes on a silver shield shaped base with black bordered edging. The decal is retained about 95%. All three liner retaining rivets are intact. The interior of the helmet has a well used liner. See photos for condition.
PRICE $5,089.00

I think this one would fool alot of people. After all everything looks great on it.
Upon closer inspection, it seems that the SS decal has problems; not enough of the crushed silver look to the background?

The lot number on this one is really messed up, indicating very late war production (long after the Factory SS decal drop of 11/1/43).

I inverted the lot number in one of the photos to show what I think this reads:
64klc
9423 or 9422

with several characters backward.
I have two shells with similar markings, one was made from very lightweight steel.
I think this was a 1945 produced late war M42 no-decal enhanced with a fake ET-SS decal.

 

[M45]

Ckl m42 sd ss

CKL M42 SD SS

Original German helmet Model 1942 M42. Original paint, liner, strap. Very decent shape, with some signs of normal wear and tear from wartime service. Helmet code is CKL 66. SS helmets from this manufacturer code are known for the bronze tint that comes out over the years. I included photos from a variety of lighting conditions to give a good indication of the condition.

Completely original, out of a collection of over 10 US and German helmets.

EBAY item# 331304189650

Starting bid: US $950.00

 

[M45]

Waffen-ss foreign volunteer m42

WAFFEN-SS FOREIGN VOLUNTEER M42

http://web.iwebcenters.com/grenadiermilitaryantiques/item184751.ctlg

M-42 Waffen-SS S/D Foreign Volunteer's Helmet
M-42 Waffen-SS S/D Foreign Volunteer's Combat Helmet. The helmet shell is marked "NS 66" unlike many of the foreign volunteer helmets, which are typically marked with the "EF" maker's marking. It features a semi-rough field gray finish, which is approx. 98%. The finish shows very light wear. The left side (typical of a foreign volunteer's helmet) of the helmet features an SS Sig-Rune decal which is approx. 98% with only the slightest of wear. The helmet is complete with it's original, undamaged leather liner, which shows some light chafing around the edge. It is complete with it's original chinstrap and drawstring. The three liner rivets are 100% original and untouched. The helmet is completely untouched, and is a fine example of a untouched, and very rare Waffen-SS volunteer's combat helmet. The overall condition is very good++ GMA-7725

Our Price: $7,895.00

 

[M45]

Champagne ss

http://ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_sold_gallery.htm

CKL 66 M-42 Waffen-SS Helmet

This outstanding example of a CKL 66 Waffen-SS helmet with classic Champagne rune SS Shield is available again for sale. The paint is a smoother texture Schiefergrau and the liner and strap show medium use but are in fine untouched condition. This helmet comes from one of the most advanced SS helmet collections in the world. This excellent example is priced at SOLD and includes my certificate of lifetime guarantee of authenticity.

A number of problems with this and similar SS helmets:

-the Champagne SS decal cannot be confirmed as wartime production. They seem to appear in the 1970's and are found applied to nearly all makes and models of helmets. This example (as do many) has suspicious repetitive wear marks.

-Shiefergrau or slate gray seems to have first appeared AFTER decals were dropped by Thale, as no known factory decaled Thale helmets have slate gray paint.

A blurb from the Lot# book:
There have been rumors circulating that Champagne SS decals were created in New York in the 1970s (the time period when these decals seemed to have first appeared) and applied indiscriminately to helmets in the decades following. Circumstantial evidence lends support to these rumors, as there are no known period photos of these decals, and the decals are not found in unapplied form with backing (as other factory decals are). Also, the CHAMPAGNE SS runes decal does not appear to follow any particular rules about where and when it may be found, very much un-like the ET, Q, and EF-pattern SS decals that followed fairly strict rules governing their application (suggesting indiscriminant postwar Champagne-SS decal application).

 

[iron bender]

Funny, Stewart's Militaria just listed a really decent complete nd M42, and mention in the details that some collectors jokingly refer to them as the "pre-SS pattern".

 

[M45]

M42 champagne sd ss

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell_original_helmets.htm

M42 Champagne Rune Waffen-SS Helmet . I owned this outstanding CKL 66 M42 in 1991, and featured it in my first SS Helmets book. I was a SF Major stationed at Ft. Bragg and had purchased it from one of the many vet families in the area. Later I sold it to a close friend, who sold it back to me in 2003. It is now again available for sale, and would grace any SS collection. This is one of the nicer ones I've had. Priced at: 7700 USD and comes with my certificate of lifetime guarantee of authenticity.

No lot# on this one, but the paint appears to be the later slate gray (44-45). Although the lot # could be within known CKL SD SS helmet range (lot# 3275 is the last known SD SS with ET-SS factory decal) and the liner band could have a 1943 date, the paint and decal give this one away as postwar altered, IMO. The champagne SS decal is found on nearly every make and model of WWII German helmet. This characteristic is similar to the ED Strache HEER decal, also found everywhere and considered to be post war applied.

 

[iron bender]

M45, what is the total quantity (approximately) of M42's you'd put as having an SS decal factory applied? What about Heer and Luft? Let's play odds of finding the real deal. Single decal Luft and Heer m35s and m40s abound. M42's, what are the stats?

 

[M45]

Iron Bender, those questions are easy to ask, but answers are quite a different matter. I may be able to offer some answers concerning helmet shells, though.

ET marked M42s---------------------approx 3500 lots X 500 shells/lot = 1,750,000
CKL marked M42 decaled-------------approx 3500 lots X 500 shells/lot = 1,750,000

CKL marked M42 NON-decaled--------approx 6000 lots X 500 shells/lot = 3,000,000

We know that HEER was the most common, followed by LUFT. Then probably SS, Field police and KM. I don't know percentages of service branches produced, though.
I had read somewhere that by around 1943 there were 1 million SS troopers in service.

Also consider that some 85% of Wehrmacht forces were engaged on the Eastern Front, while only 15% were engaged on the Western Front (the source of our German helmets).

So out of 25 million german helmets produced, some 21 million ended up in the Soviet zone never to be seen again. Disproportionately large numbers of Thale M42 SD SS helmets sent to the Eastern Front would skew our estimates of SS helmets produced by Thale.

 

[M45]

M45, what is the total quantity (approximately) of M42's you'd put as having an SS decal factory applied? What about Heer and Luft? Let's play odds of finding the real deal. Single decal Luft and Heer m35s and m40s abound. M42's, what are the stats?

I'm not sure how a game of odds will get us to the answer. I think the decal itself holds the answer. It seems to have first appeared in the 1970s, is never found in un-applied form with backing (as are other decals), and has never been seen in period photos. It is found basically everywhere (unlike the ET, Q, and EF SS decals that seem to follow general rules concerning when and where they are found). Also, champagne SS decals are found on helmets with lot numbers that are well into no-decal territory, during a time when helmet factories were not applying decals. I draw the similarity to the ED Strache Heer decal that is also found basically everywhere and is considered postwar applied.

Known production of CKL M42 SD SS helmets have the ET-SS decal applied atop factory Green-gray paint with the last ones being seen in the mid 3000 range.

The above helmet has a non-factory decal applied atop slate gray paint, a finish associated with post decal production (1944-45).

 

[M45]

Here is a little blurb I wrote recently about estimates of ET/CKL helmet production. Unfortunately, there is no breakdown for service branch.

10,000 (M35/M40) + 10,000 (M40) + 3500 (ET M42) + 9500 (ckl M42) = 33,000 total Thale lots (est.)
Estimate of the total number of Thale helmets produced from 1935-1945 (considering the change from 100 to 500 shells/lot in 1936) is 15,380,000 (15.38 million) or over 60% of total production of 25 million.

Estimates of ET M35 production: 280,000 (1935) + 1,000,000 (1936-1940) = 1,280,000 ET M35s
Estimates of ET M40 production: 5200 lots (1940) +10,000 lots (1941-42)..= 15200 lots X 500 = 7.6 million ET M40s
Estimates of ET M42 production: 3500 + 9500 = 13000 X 500 (1942-45).....= 6.5 million ET/CKL M42s


This totals to 15.3 million total estimated Thale factory helmet production.

 

[iron bender]

I'm assuming SS/Heer procurement records wouldn't break down whether helmets purchased did or didn't have decals applied.

 

[M45]

If such records even exist, one could assume by the dates on the orders whether or not there were decals, as the Heer/Luft/KM factory decal drop order was 8/28/43 and SS - 1 NOV43.

 

[M45]

Champagne ss decals

CHAMPAGNE SS DECALS

The book 'Germany's Combat Helmets 1933-1945 A modern study' by Ken Niewiarowicz shows not one champagne SS decal, but he does seem to allude to them on
p.351 SS Decals section paragraph 2:

Also as with the case of Heer helmets, the correlation between helmet producer and SS decal supplier is weaker among NS and SE marked helmets.

Conversely, SS-Steel talks at length about these with a number of photos.

Are we to believe that Ken N. accepts the champagne SS decal, or not ?

 

[tjg79]

Are any champagne decals legit for a factory install such as M35 only up to a cut-off date? Or, were these decals troop purchased on the aftermarket?