Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
camo wire
Another bad wire camo ? Good thing I never wanted one. May I ask your concerns other than no paint drippings ?
M35 Heer Chicken-wire camouflage helmet
This is an ET62 early helmet which has seen a lot of action. The non-reinforced liner frame is repaired. The helmet has been painted in standard vehicle colors with a 1/2 basket wire mesh applied.
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/gallery.htm
This helmet appears in the owner's 'collection gallery'. It is not for sale but neither is it in the 'restored WW2 helmets' section. This helmet is being displayed as a 100% authentic piece.
The camo on this one is in excellent condition. It even appears that some camo paint is on the wire as well, but I don't see any paint drips on the wire.
I'll say one thing about these 'wire/camos', they have the correct twists in the wire
Another bad wire camo ? Good thing I never wanted one. May I ask your concerns other than no paint drippings ?
Perfectly summed up!! I must add that I do think the thumbs up emoticon is necessary here in this case ;-)
The mention about WAF is spot on and very evident to me also. The thread on there that comes to mind first is the "pink SS smock" thread, and yes, no matter what your personal point of view on the item in question, that was and continues to be a key item of censorship. I know the feelings are strong on both sides of the fence, but quite often that's the same with many things in life, so just let people put their points forward and don't cut and change what you (as in a moderator) disagree with.
That's one of the things I never see happen here which is why I try to contribute as much as I can even whilst I'm not a "K98k guy" as such. Hard to be a gun guy when you're in the UK unfortunately...
Ps sorry M45 for going off topic. Let's get back to weeding out those fakes!
M45
Well-known member
David, most of those links are no longer working. Could you copy and repost the photos of the helmets in question?
This was absolutely done. I'd bet my life on the originality of these, even though Perry Floid ("WAFloid") proklaimed them "suspect"
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?11822-M-40-Lw-camo-twins-vet-mailing-label
They obviously had wire on them when sprayed. I have a strand wire Luft in the "FJR 6 camo pattern" that was painted over, wire and all.
M45
Well-known member
Of course fake camos look good, Mauser. That's really the point, for them to look good enough to fool just one person (the prospective buyer). They don't have to fool everybody.
Notice that while there is near 100% of camo remaining (red flag), the rim has been thoroughly gone over (disparity of wear- red flag) with apparent recent rust (red flag). Name painted on top of rust (red flag) and no factory paint visible underneath camo (red flag). More paint loss to interior than camo (red flag), a "top-shelf" exotic freshie in excellent condition, a camo painted but not used in combat (red flag).
It has been posted on a forum known for vetting questionable helmets (red flag) with members lining up behind it as if on queue (red flag) by a dealer who has posted questionable helmets before (red flag).
But if you like it Mauser, if it punches all of the right buttons and gives you all of the right feelings, then by all means buy it. After all, it's customer satisfaction that is paramount with camos, not necessarily originality, right ?
Good point about "filling the minds of their customer's heads with what 'real' camos look like". I think it's called 'pre-conditioning' and can be a very powerful tool to get people to do what we want them to do (like buy our fake camos). It's psychology really. Similar no doubt to the C-SS fraud. We see SS helmets posted and are told they are authentic. We are told that they have passed the "science" of XRFacts, are in print by big-name authors and are vetted by "respectable" forums and promoted by SS helmet "experts". They even come with a "guarantee of authenticity". How could we go wrong by buying one ?
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mauser99
Senior Member
I see your concerns and Im taking in your comments and they do make sense. But, the helmet itself is circa 38 judging by the shell type and liner type. That's 7 years of wear and tear before it could have been possibly camo'd. Also the former name could have been scratched off and other owners name added ? Seen this before as well. I have seen helmets named three separate times for that matter. Camo's are a field applied paint job. Using factory and non factory mixed paints. So there is consistency and then non-consistency in the colors. I try to stick with traditional factory colors when it comes to camos. I have seen some non factory colors I know are legit as well. But, it all comes down to the individual helmet.
This one I like because of the mud crazing of the over paint where the decals are. In most cases this only happens over long periods of time and the paints reaction to the lacquer on top of the decals. Can this be replicated ??? Im sure it can. There would have to be a perfect scenario for me to own a helmet as nice as this. If you pass on WW2 items because they look "too new" you are going to miss out on a lot of minty really nice stuff. There are a lot of items out there like the day they were made..
This one I like because of the mud crazing of the over paint where the decals are. In most cases this only happens over long periods of time and the paints reaction to the lacquer on top of the decals. Can this be replicated ??? Im sure it can. There would have to be a perfect scenario for me to own a helmet as nice as this. If you pass on WW2 items because they look "too new" you are going to miss out on a lot of minty really nice stuff. There are a lot of items out there like the day they were made..
M45
Well-known member
http://www.italianwarfront.com/?page_id=9
German WWII M-40 combat helmet painted winter white camo or medic. This is one that you need about 1 second to see is real. Liner and pins unmolested only the short chinstrap has a repair. I cannot see any decals under the camouflage but the interior dome is the classic green army color with the oval dome stamp. This is probably one of the rarest camo helmet and to fine one that looks good at first sight is tough.
$3.250
There are helmets so incredibly rare in this hobby that when you see one, all of the bells and whistles should go off because it is probably not real. Helmets such as M36-37 para helmets, ventless, B/II prototypes, rare volunteer insignia (French, Belgian, Dutch SS, Spanish, Russian, etc) rare TR organizations such as TENO etc.
One of these extremely rare helmets is the painted white camo. White paint was rarely used for camo, whitewash being preferred because it could be scrubbed off after winter. Nealy every real white camo I have ever seen were those with former whitewash (traces renaming). So if I was blind and you told me you had found a white painted German helmet you wanted to buy, I would tell you it is fake based on probability alone (probably in the neighborhood of 95%+).
This one has plenty of paint popped off, heavy rim/vent wear and lot of fresh red rust coming up through the paint.
White painted camos used to be almost unheard of back in the day, now they are popping up left and right "out of the woodwork".
If this one was original, it would be worth much more than the asking price IMO due to its rarity. As it is, the price is right in the neighborhood of the 2K-3K that is being asked for the average questionable camo.
Similar to the "cake icing" style of brushed white paint seen in post#1 of this thread (also bad, IMO).
German WWII M-40 combat helmet painted winter white camo or medic. This is one that you need about 1 second to see is real. Liner and pins unmolested only the short chinstrap has a repair. I cannot see any decals under the camouflage but the interior dome is the classic green army color with the oval dome stamp. This is probably one of the rarest camo helmet and to fine one that looks good at first sight is tough.
$3.250
There are helmets so incredibly rare in this hobby that when you see one, all of the bells and whistles should go off because it is probably not real. Helmets such as M36-37 para helmets, ventless, B/II prototypes, rare volunteer insignia (French, Belgian, Dutch SS, Spanish, Russian, etc) rare TR organizations such as TENO etc.
One of these extremely rare helmets is the painted white camo. White paint was rarely used for camo, whitewash being preferred because it could be scrubbed off after winter. Nealy every real white camo I have ever seen were those with former whitewash (traces renaming). So if I was blind and you told me you had found a white painted German helmet you wanted to buy, I would tell you it is fake based on probability alone (probably in the neighborhood of 95%+).
This one has plenty of paint popped off, heavy rim/vent wear and lot of fresh red rust coming up through the paint.
White painted camos used to be almost unheard of back in the day, now they are popping up left and right "out of the woodwork".
If this one was original, it would be worth much more than the asking price IMO due to its rarity. As it is, the price is right in the neighborhood of the 2K-3K that is being asked for the average questionable camo.
Similar to the "cake icing" style of brushed white paint seen in post#1 of this thread (also bad, IMO).
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M45
Well-known member
Of course minty stuff has survived the war, but as per helmet collecting, believable wear is one of the last friends we have to help us determine authenticity. Unissued decaled helmets are one of the biggest dangers to collectors due to the postwar mating of original decals to unissued no decal helmets (both of which survived in great numbers after the war).
The post war camo applications by vets or others was not actually used in combat, so it lacks believable combat wear.
Do you follow me, Mauser ?
mauser99
Senior Member
But, thanks to your work and others there is a definite decal to shell relationship and the bulk of the un-applied decals out there are the aftermarket type that really only should show up on legit re-issues of the period. Yes, there are tons on no-decal helmets still out there but thanks to research there are less chances now of them showing up with decals.
There was just one posted on GHW that a major collectors owns. I pointed it out immediately. The jig Is up in most cases now for these late shells showing up with decals.
By "factory mixed paints" you mean the issue pastes and powdered RAL, RLM, and whitewash, which was a specific issue composition? In my mind that's all there is that is original. Beyond that, beyond issue RALs, RLMs, and whitewash there is nothing I want to mess with. That is because these colors were prescribed, by order, as were the camo patterns themselves and color schemes. The colors varied a bit due to mix, normal paint variance, wear, age, etc., but all are more consistent than they are different.
Crazing replicated? It surely can if you have an oven which will heat to at least 350 deg., a baking tray, and about 30 minutes. In the art world it's called "craquelure" and art forgers have many techniques to reproduce it, though an oven will work. You can also buy chemical products which will do this, "crackle lacquers" and such. I agree with your assessments re "perfect scenario" for such a helmet. I agree with not passing on something that looks "too new". I also would advise extreme caution, particularly in "new" camos. I believe the waftard term for them is "exotic freshies". I do not own any "exotic freshies", but some poor souls do.
mauser99
Senior Member
Yes, I miss spoke a bit. Factory tints or binders I guess I meant to say as most were mixed/cut in the field and sprayed or brushed on. These "factory" colors are those RAL colors you two are always posting chips of. These really shouldn't waver. Non "traditional" I guess is a better term of colors should be looked upon with much more suspicion. I have seen a few KM coastal artillery camo's all affiliated with vet purchases and were picked up in southern France that have odd greens but have no issues with thinking they are 100% orig.
Yes, I agree. There are KM static coastal artillery camo helmets which are a little different, but those too are consistent with each other. If by "odd greens" you mean the somewhat aqua type color, that same color appears on certain Italian camo helmets as well, which are far rarer than German. KM requisition channels were a little different I would suspect.
Camo helmets all have their "twins" and similar helmets. I don't have a single camo where I have to encountered multiple examples of its obviously similar "twin". Waftarded terms such as "exotic freshie" and "flying circus team colors" (I kid you not) to excuse unique and apparently freshly painted "camos" are the same as the waftarded describing XRFacts as the "savior of the hobby". It's just shilling BS. Original camos are far more alike in colors, application, and wear than not, IMHO of 30 years of examining and owning them.
mauser99
Senior Member
I agree with you totally. As the few period photos show of helmets being reconditioned or painted. I have these two handy but, have a few more saved somewhere ?
Then there are some that go against all logic and if they were seen today would be cast aside as a total fake. "german" officer HG division Italy period stills from a film reel I think ? Multicolored with foliage in layers......... Killer camo for sure.
Then there are some that go against all logic and if they were seen today would be cast aside as a total fake. "german" officer HG division Italy period stills from a film reel I think ? Multicolored with foliage in layers......... Killer camo for sure.
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iron bender
750 Press Operator
Holy crap pic 3. I wonder if that HG field division guy knows he's wearing a palm smock that would sell for 30 to 40k today
If we only had Marty McFly's DeLorean ;$ Pic 3 is poster boy proof for the existence of the waftardeds' "exotic freshie" one of camo. That chap has the only helmet like that I've seen but I suspect it isn't "flying circus team colors" but the standard HG RLM sprayed tan with the standard RLM green over it that this fellow decided to hold a leafy branch over as a "stencil". It's still issue, just patterned different. Cool pic and what would we say if it popped up today?
M45
Well-known member
Use your head and not your heart with camo evaluation. Your heart will fail you nearly every time if you have a good fake camo on your hands. You will get those good feelings when your heart convinces you that it is real. 'To hell will all of Ice's technical B.S.' it will say.
But thankfully, the head (brain) can be trained to go through a checklist of sorts and do an impartial evaluation based on facts, not feelings.
Think about how a beautiful woman can take a man's heart. Gorgeous legs, face, hair, scent, voice, personality, etc.. He is in love, but the facts tell a different story; a criminal history of prostitution, theft, money laundering, and a penchant for stealing men's hearts and then their wallets. But he is in love and will not listen to reason; he is following his heart because it makes him feel good to do so.
There are helmets so incredibly rare in this hobby that when you see one, all of the bells and whistles should go off because it is probably not real. Helmets such as M36-37 para helmets, ventless, B/II prototypes, rare volunteer insignia (French, Belgian, Dutch SS, Spanish, Russian, etc) rare TR organizations such as TENO etc.
One of these extremely rare helmets is the painted white camo. White paint was rarely used for camo, whitewash being preferred because it could be scrubbed off after winter. Nealy every real white camo I have ever seen were those with former whitewash (traces renaming). So if I was blind and you told me you had found a white painted German helmet you wanted to buy, I would tell you it is fake based on probability alone (probably in the neighborhood of 95%+).
This one has plenty of paint popped off, heavy rim/vent wear and lot of fresh red rust coming up through the paint.
White painted camos used to be almost unheard of back in the day, now they are popping up left and right "out of the woodwork".
If this one was original, it would be worth much more than the asking price IMO due to its rarity. As it is, the price is right in the neighborhood of the 2K-3K that is being asked for the average questionable camo.
Similar to the "cake icing" style of brushed white paint seen in post#1 of this thread (also bad, IMO).
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NathanLM
Senior Member
"But thankfully, the head (brain) can be trained to go through a checklist of sorts and do an impartial evaluation based on facts, not feelings."
Brian, could you make said checklist? Or atleast list some of the tell tale signs of a fake (red flags) that you look for when evaluating a camo? I know I would use it when scrutinizing a lid.
Brian, could you make said checklist? Or atleast list some of the tell tale signs of a fake (red flags) that you look for when evaluating a camo? I know I would use it when scrutinizing a lid.