M.40 Heer Normandy Nebelwerfer Unit Helmet

[Hambone]

I sold Ken the one that had a little red paint by the name. I sold it several years ago and don’t remember the details but I remember it because of it belonged to a the rocket unit. Cool helmets Hambone! Thanks for sharing this. Larry

Hey Larry, good to see you. I would have loved to have picked that one up! We have the same taste in helmets as I've noticed over the years.

 

[Hambone]

I sold Ken the one that had a little red paint by the name. I sold it several years ago and don’t remember the details but I remember it because of it belonged to a the rocket unit. Cool helmets Hambone! Thanks for sharing this. Larry

BTW, what is the import that both of these, the one you owned and mine, having the same red paint residue on the rim along with the same FPNs? Does it confirm more originality or does it mean that the humper chose these two to add a flourish of red paint residue? You've confirmed that Ken N. did not find these together, that you sold him one. So he got the other from somewhere else, years later, and paired them for a sale.

 

[M45]

In all candor, that thing looks ridiculous. I'm not sure what it proves other than that or that people in Eastern Europe hump lids poorly and put them on Epay with names in the rim. People can and do paint names on anything, cars, airplanes, houses, walls, even calligraphy on a canvas, a helmet rim, as a tattoo on someone's forehead, etc. No on is disputing that it's not done. I'm disputing your assertion that names and FPNs in helmet rims are rare or scarce such as the existence of same should create doubt in and of itself. I look at the totality of circumstances, evidence, and appearances. I'm disputing that the existence of four helmets found worldwide on the internets in 10 years bearing the same style naming and obscure unit FPN, one a relic, one I bought for no more than an unnamed M.40 single decal which was not identified, and two which Ken N. sold for $4k for the pair, means that all of these are humped. I've never held a wombat, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist, in the thousands There were a couple thousand of these helmets to that unit, probably all named the same way, most in the same pile in Cherbourg with hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of GIs and sailors, etc., roaming about souveniring. I've had probably hundreds pass through my hands. I own perhaps 30 now. I've never paid more for one with such markings. I've got probably five of the same green and brown overpainted camo helmets and seen probably 30 more, all original. That's because military units did things uniformly. I know you're not a fan of this helmet. I know you're not a fan of the Ken N lid pair sold for $4k. I know you're not a fan of the relic helmet in France. However, as a collector of primarily named and FPN helmets for 35+ years, (which again, are not rare, as I hope I have shown by just depicting some of mine I could find easily in a work PC file folder) I'm going to respectfully disagree with your opinion, and it's not because I own the helmet. It's because I've been a student of these for a long time, know what I'm looking at, and I could get some acetone and a toothbrush, scrub that info out the back rim, and sell it for what I've got in it

In all candor, that thing looks ridiculous. I'm not sure what it proves other than that or that people in Eastern Europe hump lids poorly and put them on Epay with names in the rim. People can and do paint names on anything, cars, airplanes, houses, walls, even calligraphy on a canvas, a helmet rim, as a tattoo on someone's forehead, etc. No on is disputing that it's not done

The name painted on this helmet is obviously a humper because the helmet itself is a humper. But what about just the name itself with no other clues ? If this name was painted on the rim of an otherwise 100% authentic helmet, how would we know when it was painted on ? 70 years ago ? 7 years ago ?

Without unquestionable vet provenance or paint testing, it all becomes a matter of faith if one accepts these inscriptions or not. Of course FPN's, unit info, and names were painted on the inside rims of helmets during the TR period. Of course exotic camos were created by German soldiers during WWII (period photos prove it). But that fact alone does not mean that every purported field modified helmet we see today is authentic.

I'm disputing your assertion that names and FPNs in helmet rims are rare or scarce such as the existence of same should create doubt in and of itself.

Fakery and fraud is so rampant in this hobby that anytime a purported field modified helmet appears, whether camo or penned info, it should indeed create doubt (red flags) in and of itself. And even though you personally may not have paid extra for your FPN marked helmets, the person who purchased Ken N.'s pair did pay more - approximately $1000 more for that matching penned information. So there is indeed a bundle of money to be made by forging penned information (assuming the Ken N. helmets are humpers) in addition to all of the questionable camos that we see.

I'm disputing that the existence of four helmets found worldwide on the internets in 10 years bearing the same style naming and obscure unit FPN, one a relic, one I bought for no more than an unnamed M.40 single decal which was not identified, and two which Ken N. sold for $4k for the pair, means that all of these are humped.

When WAFloid posted his one sawdust Normandy camo in fantastic condition, red flags should have gone up. The 3 RAL Normandy style colors were usually painted at the unit level over the factory finish on helmets. To have sawdust added to that in addition to the helmet being in fantastic condition (normally heavy-wear front-line camo) was highly unlikely IMO. But to have FOUR of them nearly identical and all in fantastic condition should have clued those of us of average intelligence that something was amiss.

the existence of four helmets found worldwide on the internets in 10 years bearing the same style naming and obscure unit FPN....

Helmet collectors LOVE researchable helmets, and to find one from a Nebelwerfer ROCKET unit from Cheroberg (NORMANDY area) makes them DROOL all over themselves. But to find TWO with this IDENTICAL FPN and both in FANTASTIC condition, one can see how the buyer of Ken's helmets snapped up these two in a HEARTBEAT. Not saying the F-word, but these are highly questionable, IMO.

All it takes is a bottle of white paint and a small brush and you too can have the FPN-marked helmets of your dreams.

 

[ljoconnor]

Not everythinf is fake. I got this from a ad years back not Eastern Europe. Everyone can think what ever they want but I don’t have a dog n the fight. It makes no difference to me I just know where it came from. Larry

 

[Peter U]

Lightning can strike.
Some years ago I found two Soldbucher from two men that served in the same company in the battle for Aachen and the Battle of the Bulge.
They came from two different sources with several years difference and from private sources not an archive.
What are the chances that you'll find something of two soldiers of the same company which had most likely less then a hunderd men in its ranks in the autumn/winter of 1944?

Both Herbert Petzold (°1907) and Herbert Pelkner (°1926) belonged to 3/FR27 (12VGD) and were taken POW together in Langlire on January 12 1945.
Prior to their arrivel with 3/FR27 they both belonged to 1/Gren Ers u Ausb Btl 473 and both men were awarded the ISA by Oberstleutenant Lemm on the same day: December 3 1944.

 

[Hambone]

Most of the helmets with unit markings and such that I have seen were usually pre-war M35s, usually Luftwaffe but also some Heer examples. After the war started, this practice seems to have been largely abandoned, likely due to the danger of military intelligence falling into the wrong hands.

I recall having ONE M40 SD Luft helmet with a name rendered in white paint. I also recall seeing an Eastern Front photo with dead German trooper, his helmet laying nearby with the liner facing the camera. That helmet also had a name rendered in white paint. Both helmets' writing were neatly done in Germanic script (I assume the way German children were taught to write at that time).

Names rendered like this in helmets are rarely seen today, I suspect it was due certain units allowing this for only a short time. I base this on seeing written names on helmet skirts mostly under reissue paint (an earlier phenomenon that had been discontinued).

Subsequent naming on helmets was certainly done, but usually seen in pencil or pen (aged to aqua color?) on the inside skirt or on the liner. This could be done in the field without the need for elaborate paint cans and paintbrushes.

The renderings seen on helmets touted to be authentic today are sometimes with odd colors (black/red/yellow) and/or in block script (not Germanic script) and often sloppily done.

I greatly appreciate and respect all the lot number work you've done which has been of significant benefit to the hobby. I would not try to dispute that work, except for a glaring inconsistency requiring correction for the knowledge base, and only if I was on solid ground based upon my familiarity with the subject matter and a supported argument. However, in the post above, which seems to drive your position, you don't show experience in in the realm of "named / FPN helmets." I've been at it awhile, I have many, and a good bit of experience with them. Back in the day, even now, I would buy M.42 helmets with a name in the rim, a name in the liner, both, or nothing, for $100-$150, it didn't matter. Those same helmets are $1000 - 1500 today, with a name in the rim, a name in the liner, both, or nothing. The above is grossly incorrect and inaccurate, to the extent that to allow it to remain unchallenged does harm to the knowledge base. It appears that you are adopting your observations as fact and then building upon them to refute the originality of the helmets posted here. While that's your opinion and you are free to have it, that's a highly flawed foundation upon which to build such a premise. See Post Nr. 36, supra. I've literally forgotten how many named and FPN helmets I have now, much less those that have passed through my hands since the early 1980s. It is a large number. I've posted 13 here in this thread alone. I can post many more, but I think the point is made. Again, I doubt I've never paid more for one than the helmet would be without it. I have several helmets where the names and FPNs were period removed and left sterile or new names and FPNs added.

That people can fabricate and add names to the rims of helmets to make them more desirable is without question. The ebay one does not look ridiculous just because the helmet is postwar. it looks ridiculous because the rim name looks ridiculous too. What is being ignored in your analysis, which does not support the apparent general narrative that helmets with names / FPNs in rims are ipso facto fakes, are these facts, which are necessary in the holistic evaluation of a helmet. I'd like to see these addressed:

1) Example: if a M.40 single decal helmet with no name and no FPN would easily sell for $1200, why would someone hump a name and FPN in it, not hype that, and sell it for $1000?
2) We now know that Ken N. got one of the helmets of his pair from Larry, many years ago. Did Ken N. then hump another helmet to match it? He could not have humped both. If the humper did both, why would the humper sell two helmets, many years apart and not sell them together for a big profit like Ken N.?
3) It is pretty obvious that my helmet and Larry's were done at the same time, but not by the same person (see red paint residue, style, etc.), yet turned up about a decade apart. The same humper did both? If so, why did I not pay a premium for mine and why wasn't it advertised and sold with the unit information? A "scam" where the humper makes no money?
4) What of the relic helmet found in France? It was humped? These helmets were copies of the French helmet even though the French helmet turned up later than some of these? Time machine? Or was the French relic humped to match one of these?
5) This nebelwerfer unit is not the only one serving in the Normandy AO. It is one of about seven of them and not the most engaged. Why hump this nebelwerfer unit FPN and name and not another? If you are going to hump it, why sell it for no more than the helmet and not advertise it with the unit information and ask more? For that matter, if it's so easy, why not hump a really cool unit FPN and a KIA name associated with that unit?

By not addressing these facts and focusing on the narrow premises that : 1) named/FPN marked helmets are rare if not early war; 2) Multiples of the same FPN in helmets = fakery; and 3) names and FPNs are easy to fake, therefore these are fakes even though I haven't examined them and can't explain the logical inconsistencies in such a premise. If it stops where you stopped it amounts to "Thread Seagulling", that is, hovering over a thread, flapping about, shrieking, and pooping on it, then flying off.

Edit: Here's another one of mine, a camo. I probably have a half dozen or more of this camo style. Did the rim humper copy the name in the liner with a marking pen and then then give Bachmann a promotion with the painted rim name? It's a M.40 helmet, I think a 1941 produced helmet, so it clearly wasn't done pre-war, unless it's fake. I paid no more for the helmet with or without the name, though I bought it because of it. Someone humped this painted rim name (with a promotion) to sell it to me for a little less than the helmet retails for without any name in it? Please note that this is one more of my helmets added to those depicted at post nr. 36. I have more. Names and FPNs in helmets aren't rare (desirable to me perhaps) and none of these is "pre-war".

 

[Hambone]

Lightning can strike.
Some years ago I found two Soldbucher from two men that served in the same company in the battle for Aachen and the Battle of the Bulge.
They came from two different sources with several years difference and from private sources not an archive.
What are the chances that you'll find something of two soldiers of the same company which had most likely less then a hunderd men in its ranks in the autumn/winter of 1944?

Both Herbert Petzold (°1907) and Herbert Pelkner (°1926) belonged to 3/FR27 (12VGD) and were taken POW together in Langlire on January 12 1945.
Prior to their arrivel with 3/FR27 they both belonged to 1/Gren Ers u Ausb Btl 473 and both men were awarded the ISA by Oberstleutenant Lemm on the same day: December 3 1944.

I remember that set. Very cool. I have several pairs of identical helmets in my collection, obviously from the same unit, from difference sources, years apart.

 

[ljoconnor]

it possible to find 2 pistols or rifles consecutively numbered and that does not make them fake or renumbered. Just a little common since in a world that has gone off the edge. It also doesn’t mean you don’t need to pay attention either. My thoughts anyway. Larry

 

[mauser99]

I will play moderator here.. I think if you look at both view points that on one hand yes, M45 is correct that yes anyone can paint a name and or felpost # in a helmet to up its value. On the other hand yes its possible to find these days with the internet in the world three helmets with the same feldpost numbers ? Yes I feel its possible... Do I say tread very lightly now dealing with Ken N. and other dealers with more dirt being uncovered about there back room dealings HELL YES>>>>

Same with camo helmets tread lightly into these waters its full of sharks... And this even an insult so sharks...lol

 

[Hambone]

Yep Larry. Good point. But it’s far easier to find German helmets from the same unit. I would say that is more in the nature of finding German K98ks within 5000 numbers of each other.

That nebelwerfer unit had about 2000 men in it. They were bagged around Utah Beach / Cherbourg. I personally have about five helmets all identified as coming from that AO. There were huge numbers of Germans captured there, not destroyed. Their helmets were piled together and remained there in piles with US personnel all over that place for years, which was the transit point home, with postal service, etc. The Cherbourg area was the main port / transit point for US troops, not to mention Navy and Merchant Marine, support and supply, etc., in and out of the ETO for years, all of whom would have been souveniring. That dramatically increases the odds of multiple helmets from the same unit surviving as souvenirs. The Internet brings them together.

With K98ks, much of it has to do with survivability, not so much how many were manufactured. The same is true here.

 

[mauser99]

Also point to be made about similar camo helmets and script in helmets.. LOOK at period photos.. I was talking to Larry about this the other day.. Helmets were not done one at a time. They were done in groups typically by one guy with some talent.. I try to save interesting photos like this.. This is pre war but typically this would be how it was done.
Camos and field overpaints also... We have had major discussions about such things.

 

[Hambone]

Yep. My observations over the last 35+ years of collecting camo helmets is that the originals all have twins or more. Back in the day I didn’t have as much disposable income so I could not keep “duplicates”. I would have many of those had I been able to keep all of them. By “duplicates” I mean camo helmets painted at the same time by the same unit. I’ve run across this enough that it doesn’t surprise me. In fact, my general rule with camouflage painted helmets is that if I’ve not seen or owned its twin I’m even more skeptical. That’s consistent with M99’s point.

If a helmet with a name and FPN is priced the same as the helmet without the name and FPN then what was the point of faking a name and FPN?

 

[Hambone]

Another point with respect to M99s excellent pic. Look closely at how uniform the names are in the helmet rims. It does not look like each individual soldier was tasked with putting his own name and info in the rim. That looks like it was done by at most several different people, for uniformity, at unit level. The same consistency is present in the helmets in this thread, though they are not identical / done by the same person.

 

[M45]

That people can fabricate and add names to the rims of helmets to make them more desirable is without question.-Hambone

on one hand yes, M45 is correct that yes anyone can paint a name and or felpost # in a helmet to up its value.-M99

First, it isn’t difficult to write a name and unit in a helmet or on another piece of equipment, turning an anonymous piece into a re-searchable object with minimal effort, one step more then the lazy way of just rambling off a name like: this is the helmet of Lt X of unit Y, we all know that.- Peter U.


This is a critical point and I'm glad we all agree. Helmets are being humped in a variety of ways such as painted names/FPNs/Unit info, camo paint/wire/ghosted wire/sawdust/tigerstripes etc... and its been going on for a long time. Remember the story about Walt Disney with his humped helmets during the Great War ?


3) It is pretty obvious that my helmet and Larry's were done at the same time, but not by the same person (see red paint residue, style, etc.), yet turned up about a decade apart.-Hambone

I'm not a forensic handwriting analyst but with a cursory view of the 4 inscriptions, I see enough similarity to suspect these were all painted by the same person. But that shouldn't be a problem with the pre-war photo of the one guy painting up all of the helmets. Once again, all of this could go either way.



Some years ago I found two Soldbucher from two men that served in the same company in the battle for Aachen and the Battle of the Bulge.-Peter U.

it possible to find 2 pistols or rifles consecutively numbered and that does not make them fake or renumbered -lJoConnor

Not fair comparisons with factory produced items, IMO. These items were produced to standards, and as long as the other characteristics all line up, there should be no problems with consecutive numbers on weapons, soldbucks from same company, helmets with identical lot#s, etc... These items have an array of other characteristics that can be scrutinized for authenticity, not just essentially 1 factor as with the painted info.

Otherwise original helmets with painted info really have just 1 aspect to scrutinize. Information was hand painted onto the rim of German helmets. WHEN was it painted on ?
Without unquestioned vet provenance or paint testing, I don't see how anyone could know for certain the correct answer to that question. Either one has FAITH or one does not have FAITH, but FAITH is indeed the basis of any judgement.



The same humper did both? If so, why did I not pay a premium for mine and why wasn't it advertised and sold with the unit information? A "scam" where the humper makes no money?-hambone

Very good questions here. My thoughts are that forgers are not just thinking short term (immediate profit) but longer term. They are getting collectors USED TO or COMFORTABLE with the idea of seeing penned info inside the rims of helmets. Then gradually they can start charging more for their creations (re: the Ken N. FPN pair). Or, possibly as in the case of the Ken N. pair, helmets with the same info can be FOUND and MATCHED with one another at a future date making those helmets more desirable as a pair than alone (re: the $1000 bump in price for the Ken N. pair vs individual pricing).

 

[mauser99]

I cant see why a forger would be looking at long term investment ? If they are faking a name and feldpost # on a helmet for immediate profit how can there be long term gain unless they invest the money maybe in dildo factory or something very lucrative > ? Your point was made and taken now just going off the rails tin foil hat type of stuff...lol

Time to move on here.....

 

[Hambone]

The same humper did both? If so, why did I not pay a premium for mine and why wasn't it advertised and sold with the unit information? A "scam" where the humper makes no money?-hambone

Very good questions here. My thoughts are that forgers are not just thinking short term (immediate profit) but longer term. They are getting collectors USED TO or COMFORTABLE with the idea of seeing penned info inside the rims of helmets. Then gradually they can start charging more for their creations (re: the Ken N. FPN pair). Or, possibly as in the case of the Ken N. pair, helmets with the same info can be FOUND and MATCHED with one another at a future date making those helmets more desirable as a pair than alone (re: the $1000 bump in price for the Ken N. pair vs individual pricing).

Ken N. got the helmet with the red paint residue in the skirt from Larry, years apart from when he got the second one, which made a pair that he sold for high dollar. The relic in France from the French collector appeared years before that. Mine just appeared out of a completely different collection. All of this is over a span of over 10 years. The humper is floating these out there over more than a decade, selling a couple at no profit for the humpery to then have Ken N. put two together and make about $1000-1500 profit on selling the pair? How did the humper know Ken was going to get the two? The humper seeded the market over 10+ years, with a relic and one at the cost of the base helmet, to set up the Ken N. scam, and used Larry as an unwitting conduit for the second twin to get it to Ken N.?

It is not uncommon to find names penned in liners and names / FPNs, initials, symbols, etc., in skirts. It's just not something that a humper needs to do to make collectors "USED TO" or "COMFORTABLE" with the concept because it is just that prevalent. I'm used to it, comfortable with it, because it is a common enough trait in issued German WW2 helmets to be common. The same is true of US and Commonwealth helmets. I'm quite the skeptic. I'm quite harsh on indicia of humping and humpers generally. However, the above premise is not a prize winner or money maker. A humper or humper conspiracy doesn't need a nefarious long term plot to seed the market at no profit with named and FPN'd skirt painted lids to make advanced helmet collectors believe that they are not uncommon. We already know they aren't, and have known this for many years. They were doing this in the mid 80s when a named and used M.42 was worth less than half the price of an unissued "99%" decal lid? They were all about then and they are all about now.

What a humper needs to do is paint a name and FPN to a sexy unit in the rim, sex up his ad with research, and look for a sucker. This needs to be done convincingly because experienced collectors look at these things in sunlight, look for age, oxidations, paint over old rust, etc. Yet again, the appearance of my helmet and the relic in France confirm the legitimacy of the Ken N. pair, one of which belonged to Larry, they don't detract.

Here's a very worn Luft camo I was selling. I was asking no more for it because of the owner "mark" in the liner.

 

[Peter U]

M45, sorry but I don't see Ken N and his fake selling buddies upgrading a relic helmet, taking it to France and entering it their in the collecting community to confirm a series of other helmets, one which Hambone bought without paying extra for the name and Fp number.
This sounds like a very bad business model.
It even sounds absurd!
These master minds of fakery, just airbrushed a decal on a helmet sold it to collectors with more money than sense.
So they now are going to target the more knowledgable collector, that in general don't pay extra for things like names in helmets, by making us used to see Fp numbers and names on helmet rims?
This is just silly.
I have been looking at names and units in helmets for +25 years now, I don't need Ken N for that, helmets that have been worn in general have a name in them, how would a soldier otherwise reckognize his own helmet from the other soldiers helmets in his platoon that all look identical?

 

[mauser202]

Really interesting posts the last few days. I tend to agree with M45, there are a lot of humped camo lids, some that fool even seasoned collectors. And it seams more and more pop up at every show. But I don’t think these lids in question are fake. When you look at the evidence as a whole, I think the chances of them being legit is beyond any reasonable doubt. Larry seems to have a nose for great lids and with one of these passing through his hands, for me, adds to the chances of it being legit.
I don’t personally know HB, but have read his posts over many years, bounced some items off of him for vetting and seen him relentlessly pursue humpers and their wears on multiple forums. I believe he has a keen eye for legit, quality items and what is humped crap. He has the lid in hand and while no one is beyond being wrong, or is right 100% of the time, I would trust his opinion on this lid given his track record.

Wayne, a pic is worth 1000 words, and that one is bank! I love pic proof of the lids getting painted by one person. Great snip of history.

 

[Hambone]

Thanks Mauser202. I try I'd admit if there was something questionable if I saw it, on my own stuff as well.

It is interesting as on the M99 posted it appears that the guy is also touching up the white in a the shield with the same white paint he used to put the names in the helmets. Or perhaps he's just acting like he's touching up the shield for the PK photographer. In any event, all of those names are in the same rim area and look to be in the same handwriting. I would think that for uniformity and legibility they'd have one or several guys in the unit doing that who had a talent for it. These clearly do not show much talent.......
The first shows the name "Puls" obviously added by someone with penmanship skill, at the unit level. The next, quite crude, probably Puls himself.

The second set is a camo with an illegible name, and barely legible FPN, in the side of the skirt, which is a little odd.

 

[mauser202]

I thought the same thing but It almost looks like he has a tool in his hand. Maybe scraping off the party shield?