DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[M45]

The next page is 'Personalized Helmets Update'. I haven't seen any more about XRF.

I wonder how many high-end collections have C-SS, as they are not cheap. When collectors pass on and their collections are sold off is when you see how many fake helmets they had. I do not doubt that we will see C-SS for many years to come as a part of these high end collections being parted out.

 

[tjg79]

I've always read that the Hicks lid book had an XRF chapter. If only two pages are the extent of the Hicks lid book XRF chapter, then his "lengthy essay" on C SS lid legitimacy may only be an extended paragraph. You should post those two pages on the XRFacts thread so we can give it a sentence by sentence critique with commentary to show the extent of the buffoonery called XRFacts lid testing.

However, the main point can be strongly made: each maker's decal contains a specific amount of certain elements, so not only can they be judged original, but also judged as to "yes, this array of elements is correct for the Q decal or the champagne rune." Paint and helmet shell steel are similarly measurable for authenticity.

I think we're beginning a new era for the C SS lid where the bottom will fall out of the C SS lid market. I can't see these fakes selling for more than a few hundred dollars as molested lids.

 

[Hambone]

The problem with the lid collecting community is that it's populated with guys like Hicks who are the anointed lid gurus. He's definitely one that practices the "privileged information" game. The bigger fools are the ones that pay for his SS lid authentication services. I can't wait to read the Hicks "lengthy essay" on C SS lid legitimacy. If it reads like his SS Steel XRF chapter, then this SS lid guru head-to-head between Kelly Hicks and Doug B should be a slam-dunk for Doug B.

My opinions: This presumes that the audience is not populated with bobbleheads. Remember, the audience will contain the same human myna birds bedazzled by the XRFacts light shows and pie charts and trained to shriek "savior of the hobby." To them, the SS Lid Elders are demigods, their oracles, and to question a demigod is heresy. Heretics must be silenced, censored, banned. Mating Hicks with a XRF ray gun for them was like Obi Wan Kanobi (sic) mated with a light saber; like Batman mating with Robin.

The key point is that DougB has the intelligence, money, spine and ethical core to challenge the SS Lid Elders. That is what we are seeing. I don't think he cares to go along to get along; he doesn't have to in order to get a 3R trinket fix or risk antagonizing his dealer nor does he care about being silenced and shunned by the nitwit WAF Lid Forum Choir or a WAFmod. I've got my beer and popcorn ready......

 

[Hambone]

Of interest, worth saving and repeating (emphasis added):
http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_authentications.htm

"A few words on XRFacts, (just so people know what they are talking about when they criticize it). The company I was a part of for its short but interesting history used a technology called X-Ray Florescence to scan decals and paint on helmets to determine what they were made of. You can google the exact process, but essentially X-rays cause non-organic (i.e. metal) elements to fluoresce or glow, emitting measurable waves based on what the elements are. Since modern materials, especially paint and metallic decals are made from non-heavy metal sources (by law), it is easy to tell if something is old or not. So we took all of my SS helmet collection plus several other world-famous collections, and scanned the decals and paint. We discovered quickly that ET decals emit a certain pattern or "fingerprint", as do Quist, EF, and Champagne runes. All of them contain set quantities of aluminum, some iron, and other smaller amounts of metals; and all of them contain vanadium, which is a hardener and brightener. Curiously, Champagne runes contain a very similar pattern of elements to CA Pocher, with the exception of 3% copper, which evidently gives them their special color. We were pleasantly surprised that we could establish an "average" for each decal maker, that was almost precisely exact in every case. Next, we scanned "crushed glass" and Eastern European fakes, as well as many others, and determined pretty quickly that they had all the wrong elements (or hardly any) in them at all. We established a database (a copyright-protected one) of all the original helmets we scanned. As I mentioned, the scans and databasing included CA Pocher, Quist, ET, NS and EF style decals. We used it to establish the baseline for originals that was used every time we scanned a helmet. That gave us a baseline for testing and showed comparative quantities of elements that helped us determine if a helmet passed or did not pass when we shot it with X-Rays. The absolute final touch on each and every helmet we scanned was my personal hands-on of the helmet. I felt if my name was going to be on it, I had to be absolutely precise. Sadly, we had a couple of hiccups early in the process that brought the wrath of hell down on our heads. One in particular was when we did 60 helmets at one sitting for a dealer (this took 8 long hours in a hotel conference room), and while carefully labeling the originals from the fakes, one of the fake Heer helmets was mis-labeled and put in the wrong stack (and eventually put up for sale on their site). It did not get sold and nobody was harmed. However, that incident was never explained properly, I felt. We had a couple of other mistakes along the way, but all in all I felt it was a good authentication tool that would have helped create a worldwide database of originals (with their data recorded) so that those helmets would always hold their value no matter if a collector's widow tried to sell them, or if they were passed down through a family for a hundred years. Lastly, it was one more good way to keep fakes away from the market and protect collectors. I’ve invested far too much time and effort into the collecting hobby (51 years and 5 books, written through immense time and effort of personally accumulated knowledge) to want anything but the best tools (books or any knowledge based tool) in the hands of or at the disposal of collectors—this was my motivation here, nothing more, nothing less. Despite XRFacts' many criticisms, both helpful and unhelpful, I think none of us would say using any and all available technology (in this case, empirical scientific method) to empower collectors with confidence and knowledge is a bad thing. Good luck and happy collecting!"

 

[tjg79]

Now, if you see a C SS lid pic, you should also see a neon sign in your mind's eye flashing post-war fake. Those pics posted by M45 showing a C SS decal with delaminated paint exposing the original silver shield paint under the black border paint is highly consistent with what Doug B has alleged and highly consistent with what M45's lot number research suggests. If Doug B can show that all the C SS lid examples he's examined are "spray jobs" without a celluloid base, contrary to Hicks' observations, then it seems reasonable to presume that any Champagne hue SS decal lid is a fake. C SS lids will be the easiest fakes to identify. However, if you own one of these beauties, you'll still likely be able to buy a Kelly Hicks COA to hang on your wall.

 

[M45]

Keep in mind that numbers of these template painted fakes are out there, some with and some without the champagne hue. A correct silver background on an SS decal does not necessarily mean that it is good.

As TVG said, a helmet should have a top to bottom inspection. This means not just focusing on the insignias but comparing maker, model, and lot# information with known original examples.

I believe that is one of the things that helped to propagate the C-SS myth; the focusing on the insignia alone and how good it looked and paying no attention to other critical details.

 

[Hambone]

So if these CR lids are sprayed on, then how are they consistent with the other original SS decals but with "3% copper" as Hicks asserts? Despite Hick's somewhat pompous excuse screed for XRFacts, it sounds to me like a group of people with technology they don't fully understand, caught up in their own self-importance, who don't know what they don't know. From what I see, IMHO, in litigation and under decent cross examination that screed of Hick's would be disassembled and collapse on him.

It must also be remembered that despite Hicks' position that they were just trying to help the hobby, he and his fellow XRFacts krewe members were selling their authentication services for big bucks. They were going to control the authentication / COA game. There were waftards shilling this light show proclaiming that "all helmets will require an XRFacts COA." That is a frightening thought.

 

[tjg79]

..., who don't know what they don't know.

I think that about sums up the XRfacts crew. Also, I would add that they don't want to know what they don't know, because it gets messy and confusing for them.

 

[tjg79]

Keep in mind that numbers of these template painted fakes are out there, some with and some without the champagne hue. A correct silver background on an SS decal does not necessarily mean that it is good.

As TVG said, a helmet should have a top to bottom inspection. This means not just focusing on the insignias but comparing maker, model, and lot# information with known original examples.

I believe that is one of the things that helped to propagate the C-SS myth; the focusing on the insignia alone and how good it looked and paying no attention to other critical details.

I would think now that evidence of the decal celluloid base would be a key inspection point. I've read other threads where template spay jobs were discussed and they weren't talking about C SS lids.

That WAF thread screen shot you posted illustrates the typical WAF lid forum critical review shutdown the moment someone drops Hicks' name as supporting a questionable lid.

I had my doughts when I first saw it. If Kelly says its good then I need no more info.

 

[tjg79]

New Feature Helmet August 2013

The feature helmet for the month of August is an outstanding example of an NS64 M-40 Chickenwire SS Helmet that I vet purchased at the Columbus Gun Show in the 1970s. I did a writeup on this helmet in "SS-Steel, Updated Edition" after I had returned to the States and had access to it again via the old collector I had traded it to. The helmet sat in my collection for years and to me was simply what an SS helmet was-- something that told a story. The veteran sold this to me for 240 dollars, along with a decent police Luger holster. As I was standing there at his table, he made a gesture toward his son and asked him if one last time, he wanted the helmet. The boy declined (fortunately!) and I took the helmet. The vet said he took straw out from behind the chickenwire before he came to the gun show (not the best news I could have heard). He also said he got the helmet during engagements with HJ Division in Normandy (he claimed he shot the wearer). When I got the helmet home, I discovered a hank of hair attached to a tiny bit of (skull) bone up inside the dome of the helmet. This was to me gruesome--it was obvious the liner and inside had been blood soaked and left as is. My mother saw this and ordered me to take the helmet out of the house and into the garage. This is what I recall in 2013 of that event that took place in 1975 or 4. The helmet was a birthday gift to a friend of mine, then it wound up in an advanced "closet" collection; then came back to me for a short while then went to a local advanced collector who enjoys it immensely. The shell is a dark Schiefergrau finish, with wide style Champagne rune (If you look in "SS-Steel, Updated Edition" you will see a chapter devoted to NS helmet characteristics and champagne rune variations--Also Quist Decal variations). Pictured below are a recent picture of the helmet; a 1970s picture of the helmet on my picnic table along with another champagne rune (M-42 --ckl I think)and some pages from SS-Steel discussing the NS decal variations and helmets they appear on.



http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_feature.htm

The lid described above will likely figure prominently in the Hicks' "lengthy essay" defending the champagne rune ss decal legitimacy. I wonder if it's got a celluloid base decal?

 

[Hambone]

The lid described above will likely figure prominently in the Hicks' "lengthy essay" defending the champagne rune ss decal legitimacy. I wonder if it's got a celluloid base decal?

Wow, great story. "And then the Ghost of Christmas Past appeared under my table at the funshow holding hands with the headless ghost of the dead SS soldat who owned this helmet and they both confirmed this helmet was original. Maui then shot it with the lid taser, confirming it 1500% original." Whereupon the waftarded faithful fell to their respective floors all over the world weeping in awe and jabbering praise and thumbs up emoticons in unison.

 

[Bugme]

You're right Bugme. Again, I find it astonishing that this isn't front and center THE topic of discussion at WAF. If the "Champagne Rune" is exposed as a fraud by DougB, and from what I know of DougB, I have little doubt that it will be, then the big question is this: who was/is doing it? Who are they in league with and acting through? How many people are doing it? How similar are the templates and technique used? If this was such a big secret, such that Kelly Hicks himself claimed these were original "decals" and issued COAs proclaiming that, then wouldn't only a small number of people would know of this manner of fakery? I bet if you caught that guy or small group and he/they were under threat of prosecution, they would squeal like pigs on who else knew

Hmmmm, do you know a good attorney who could go after them? LOL

 

[tjg79]

I think M45 will have to go back and re-look his lot number data, because this outstanding C SS lid with great story and ghost/maui authentication falls on a no-SS-decal lid manufacturer.

 

[nirvana]

Wow, great story. "And then the Ghost of Christmas Past appeared under my table at the funshow holding hands with the headless ghost of the dead SS soldat who owned this helmet and they both confirmed this helmet was original. Maui then shot it with the lid taser, confirming it 1500% original." Whereupon the waftarded faithful fell to their respective floors all over the world weeping in awe and jabbering praise and thumbs up emoticons in unison.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

"What cost $240 in 1975 would cost $1041.73 in 2014."

No one would fake something that is worth more than $1,000.00..... After "offering" it for sale to a third party, along with a low value item (holster). I recall hearing a story about a guy at show some years back trying to sell an import marked K98 as his personal bringback. He was telling people that the import mark was a unit marking or something?

And why on earth do all named helmets correlate only with one or two people? I've never heard of a helmet named to Hans Schmitt...

 

[Bugme]

I saw this on the WAF today. Was posted on the 11th, I had to smile. If this was posted here before, my apologies, my time is spread out as an Admin on two other sites and I often miss things when I come here to do a quick read.

 

[M45]

The lid described above will likely figure prominently in the Hicks' "lengthy essay" defending the champagne rune ss decal legitimacy. I wonder if it's got a celluloid base decal?

We are confident now that the NS (or SE) factory never produced SS helmets, so that NS M40 with green gray paint no doubt has remnants of a Heer decal on the left side (a former party shield [former DD SS] is what we'll be told).

Consider that the other branch insignias on combat helmets were eagles (Heer, Luft, KM, Field Police) and probably be next to impossible to produce believable airbrushed examples. But the SS insignia is comprised of just two colors with very well defined borders, quite easy to fake and fool many, as we are seeing.

 

[tjg79]

We are confident now that the NS (or SE) factory never produced SS helmets, so that NS M40 with green gray paint no doubt has remnants of a Heer decal on the left side (a former party shield [former DD SS] is what we'll be told).

Consider that the other branch insignias on combat helmets were eagles (Heer, Luft, KM, Field Police) and probably be next to impossible to produce believable airbrushed examples. But the SS insignia is comprised of just two colors with very well defined borders, quite easy to fake and fool many, as we are seeing.

When these SS decals appear on lids that shouldn't have SS decals, I always read the rationalization that the decal in question is a field/unit applied decal. So, the fact that some factories never produced an SS lid is meaningless to the collectors that always default to the field applied exceptions.

 

[nirvana]

Were field applied decals really that common? Anyone have a percentage, 5%. 10%

 

[M45]

Unethical behavior (re: the C-SS hoax) thrives in an environment of confusion. We stir the pot with conflicting information, get collectors confused, and then we emerge with the "answers". The reason we do this is so that people will stop listening to others and begin listening only to us. Our charts, graphs, and ray-gun analysis only strengthens that myth.

Some of the earlier WAF posts show the doubts and confusion about C-SS, but then the "answer" (aka: the "experts") appeared and dispelled most doubt. But now, the C-SS myth is coming apart at the seams just like that NS M42 SS decal with flaking borders, exposing its true nature as a fake.

I have found the following to be accurate concerning M42 SS helmets:

I would advise collectors avoid the following M42 SS helmets as a matter of policy:

Quist M42
hkp M42
NS M42
ET marked M42
qvL/bvL M42

The evidence points to no factory SS production with these shell types.

I would stick with known factory types such as:

ckl M42 (ET-SS decal) (avoid beyond approx. lot# 3318) M42 CKL66 3318 SD SS ZSH RTGG ET-SS LAST KNOWN ET-SS FACTORY DECAL

EF M42 (ET, EF, pocher SS decals) (avoid beyond approx. lot# 3591) M42 EF64 3591 SD SS ZSH SM 43STRAP RTGG POCHER-SS (LAST KNOWN SD SS)


Concerning field/depot applied SS decals, I understand that the Pocher-SS decal was the premiere reissue SS decal and is what is expected to be found on SS reissues. Some SE M35s with parade paint have been seen in addition to an SE M35 with wartime textured paint, all with Pocher SS decals (former Heer helmets). I have also seen factory ET SS helmets that were reissued with Pocher SS decals. Reissue examples of cross-service branch have also been seen such as Heer to SS or Luft to SS. However, SS reissues overall seem to be very, very uncommon (less than 5% of all SS helmets, IMO).

One way to collect SS helmets is to stick with known factory production with known factory SS decals. If you are venturing into reissue SS helmet territory, I would call you an expert because you really have to know what you're doing. Technically ANY make or shell model could have been period reissued to SS at some point (with Pocher SS decals), but remember that unapplied Pocher SS loosies have been brought back by vets and were postwar applied to all sorts of helmets. Helmets with Pocher SS decals touted as SS reissues are most likely postwar applied due to all of this postwar decal application.

Look for bright, new appearing decals against worn, faded paint finishes. Also look for offset placement to avoid paint damage.

 

[M45]

Here is another of the C-SS 'variations', a thick border example on an hkp M42.