DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[Hambone]

I think these lids were first legitimized in Hicks' first lid picture book. After that, you were arguing against a published reference by lid guru, XRFacts co-founder, lid picture book with XRF chapter author, and paid C SS lid authenticator, Kelly Hicks. On the other lid forums, if you drop his name all discussion of legitimacy ends.

........................

 

[M45]

Even with a photo of a photo, even from print to computer graphic, I can still see the lack of depth, the flatness, the 'painted on' look.

 

[Hambone]

Even with a photo of a photo, even from print to computer graphic, I can still see the lack of depth, the flatness, the 'painted on' look.

That no one apparently ever thought to look at one under high magnification is pretty amazing. That technology has been around cheap for a very long time.

 

[iron bender]

So let's say DougB has nothing else to say about the matter. Where does this leave the issue? Perhaps the damage is already done and exposed? I'm paying close attention to this thread because you can't pay for better drama. (unless of course you're sitting on a c-ss decal helmet, then your drama's costing you 5-7k). A note; it seems unusual that DougB is as big and important a collector/historian as one can be in the realm of SS helmets, and is keeping others in suspense. Am I reading this correctly?

 

[M45]

That no one apparently ever thought to look at one under high magnification is pretty amazing. That technology has been around cheap for a very long time.

I'm sure the "experts" were looking at these under high magnification all right, they just never told us what they really saw. You see, it's a "highly complex matter", and such matters can only really be understood by SS helmet "experts", which doesn't include us, I'm afraid.

 

[tjg79]

I thought I might look over the "Champagne Synopsis" a bit at a time since the entire post (#134) can be a bit overbearing:

"Frank asked me via email for information regarding lot numbers on these but nobody can make any sense of these by lot numbers. There are so few you won’t find doubles and it is a vast oversimplification of the subject matter. To discuss this decal on its own and in the general sense forums discuss them (i.e.; It’s real, no its not, yes it is, no its not) without facts is pointless. The conversation on this decal in the past has been vastly oversimplified and been typically driven by those who mainly have never held an SS helmet never mind conducted an intensive in-depth study on SS decals.

Since the Champagne SS, similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, was applied postwar without regard to maker, model or lot number, then C-SS lot numbers would show no rhyme or reason to them, other than the fact that many show up in no-decal territory, because late ND helmets are the most available (as opposed to reissued ND M35s and M40s with factory style paint which are much less common - Q M40s excepted). Now it is clear why we don't see doubles of these. A vast oversimplification of the matter? I think it is Doug who is making the issue more complex than it really is. Make the issue so "complex" that only the "experts" can figure it out. That's right, the issue has been driven by those who are not even SS helmet "experts", those who have never even held an SS helmet, never mind conducted this "extensive research" like Doug and Kelly have.



In the interest of not having to revisit this topic which appears about once or twice a year with always the same result here are my thoughts of what I see is a highly complex matter and for what it is worth, you can take or leave them. Pardon the exhaustive post, but I believe it is necessary.

Doug has been promoting C-SS for years. Now that doubts and questions have arisen about their authenticity, collectors naturally have questions about this. But since these questions never receive sufficient answers, the questions continue. Once again, this is a "highly complex matter", and complex matters can only be understood and explained by "experts". Now listen carefully young students, and our teacher will explain to us this very complex issue. Now, Doug is growing tired of having to re-visit this issue twice a year so he is going to lay it all out for us once and for all. Once he has completely explained the matter, that should suffice, in other words, after this, no more questions about C-SS.

I see it a bit differently. Doug B's opinion has evolved from newbee with reference books to experienced collector with knowledge acquired from books, active participation in the lid collecting community, and hands on experience. From his evolving opinion, I think he's tried to reconcile the facts as best he could, but few examples, reference books, XRFacts claims, and vet bring-back stories make that a complex if not impossible task. All the old forum posts are just snapshots in time. They are points on his opinion's path of evolution. He's mentioned the lot number study and that information may have helped cleared some of the smoke and fog. His skill level is such that he can now discount the reference books and disregard the bring-back stories. His research with microscopy has yielded new information, allegedly, that outs a whole class of fakes. That is not just opinion, because he said so based on years of experience, it's scientific fact. And, he shares that knowledge. It fits and is consistent with the lot number research. Now, all the pictures look like spray-jobs. There were always rationalizations as to why all the facts didn't fit. But, that was arguing against what the lot number study suggested and what the examples suggested, and I'm sure personal bias played a significant role. The problem was some of the facts weren't facts and reference books had errors. For most, if the book says it's correct, it must be correct. If Doug B can show that all C SS lids are template spray-jobs, then I think the bottom will fall out from under the C SS lid market. That is rocking the boat and stepping on toes and indicates that he's a bit different from the rest of the good old boy lid collecting club.

 

[tjg79]

That no one apparently ever thought to look at one under high magnification is pretty amazing. That technology has been around cheap for a very long time.

It may not be readily apparent to a mind biased by conventional knowledge and visual inspection by an untrained eye. Microscopy is a skill. Apparently, Doug B has acquired some skill from years of practice and experience. I don't think everyone with a C SS lid and a USB microscope would know what they are seeing.

 

[M45]

I see it a bit differently. Doug B's opinion has evolved from newbee with reference books to experienced collector with knowledge acquired from books, active participation in the lid collecting community, and hands on experience. From his evolving opinion, I think he's tried to reconcile the facts as best he could, but few examples, reference books, XRFacts claims, and vet bring-back stories make that a complex if not impossible task. All the old forum posts are just snapshots in time. They are points on his opinion's path of evolution. He's mentioned the lot number study and that information may have helped cleared some of the smoke and fog. His skill level is such that he can now discount the reference books and disregard the bring-back stories. His research with microscopy has yielded new information, allegedly, that outs a whole class of fakes. That is not just opinion, because he said so based on years of experience, it's scientific fact. And, he shares that knowledge. It fits and is consistent with the lot number research. Now, all the pictures look like spray-jobs. There were always rationalizations as to why all the facts didn't fit. But, that was arguing against what the lot number study suggested and what the examples suggested, and I'm sure personal bias played a significant role. The problem was some of the facts weren't facts and reference books had errors. For most, if the book says it's correct, it must be correct. If Doug B can show that all C SS lids are template spray-jobs, then I think the bottom will fall out from under the C SS lid market. That is rocking the boat and stepping on toes and indicates that he's a bit different from the rest of the good old boy lid collecting club.

tjg79, I guess I haven't been able to very well hide the fact that Doug and I do not get along. It goes back to about 2011 on GHW1 when I had discovered the movie clip of the USAAC pilots trying on unissued German M42 helmets they had found on a wrecked train. They appeared to be slate gray due to the color film. I also noticed that one helmet had the characteristic wavy metal in the scallop area characteristic of CKL M42s, so I made the suggestion that many of these unissued slate gray M42 CKL SD Champagne SS helmets may have originally been from the ND M42 rail car cache. Doug immediately became defensive and did not want to even consider such a possibility. It was soon after this that I published the lot# book, and this caused a stir because 1) I had used some lot# information from GHW without their 'permission' and 2) GHW had planned on publishing their own lot# book (yeah, right).

During this time I had noticed that GHW liked to accuse members of being what they call "off-topic"; a method I found to be abusive to members and used to get members in line with their way of thinking, chastise members, or as a lame excuse to lock a forum down. During subsequent discussions of C-SS decals, I was hit with the "off-topic" accusation repeatedly and saw it as a means to attempt to shut me up. One day I called them on the carpet about it and was soon banned.

Later, on WRF (warrelics forum) I was discussing with SSamir about the SE M40 DD SS champagne found in SS=Steel, and was critical of it, pointing out its blue gray Luft style color and sanding marks by where a Luft decal would have been. Doug was notified and came charging in, deleting some of my posts and then tried to save face by telling me I was free to my opinion, but needed to post in the "correct" locations on the forum (pure B.S.). Other times when posting, he would confront me (often with a foul mouth) telling me how I could not 'prove' my helmets were 'late war' and thus should stop labeling them as such. Ultimately I was banned from there as well.

I know that this C-SS issue has been a fighting retreat for Doug, doing his best to justify it at every opportunity in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. If you want to make excuses for him, go ahead, but how do you square his absolutely ridiculous statements about C-SS; such as 'plenty of period photographic evidence' supporting it, or the idea that he thinks C-SS was mainly a private purchase decal mainly on NS M35 and hkp M42 ?

If you see that your ship is sinking, your best bet is to jump ship. I think that is what Doug is doing. It's in his own best interests.

 

[M45]

It may not be readily apparent to a mind biased by conventional knowledge and visual inspection by an untrained eye. Microscopy is a skill. Apparently, Doug B has acquired some skill from years of practice and experience. I don't think everyone with a C SS lid and a USB microscope would know what they are seeing.

It didn't take a USB scope for some to know that these were bad, it's really visible to the naked eye if you think about it. The archived posts show the doubt. A 10X loup would have only confirmed it. How would a USB scope have done any differently?

I don't think everyone with a C SS lid and a USB microscope would know what they are seeing.

Yes, a layperson brand new to the hobby, I agree. But an SS collector with some odd 120 SS lids with many other dozens in hand and networking with other SS collectors and authors with all of their dozens ?

I think it is the difference between a layperson and an SS helmet expert.

 

[Hambone]

I fall in line with tjg's hypothesis on DougB's evolution on the Champagne Rune based upon my view of the facts. M45 you have a natural bias, which I can't say is unwarranted, much as I do with certain klowns at WAF. My moderating style, and that of this site, is quite different from that of most other sites. Who has been banned or censored? How often do we have "uprisings" and problems here? Do you trust the information and integrity of this site? That's the point of why we function like this.

It wasn't easy for DougB to evolve and publicly admit it on XRFacts. But he did, for intellectually honest reasons IMHO. I see the same evolution on the "Champagne Rune". I will also offer the opinion that the revelation of this hoax, and if DougB shows it he gets the credit, is an indictment of the poor stewardship of the SS lid collecting "leadership" in general. IMHO too many were invested (literally) and profited from the hoax to reveal it. Those in the chain of commerce of the emperor's new clothes have no interest in learning the truth and telling anyone. If what DougB says is shown, this is the lid hobby's most embarrassing winking conspiracy, IMHO. I would have expected more intellect and integrity in people trafficking $5,000 to $7,500 helmets. Try getting even a $1500 humped K98k past this krewe

 

[nirvana]

When (if?) the final coffin nails come out for these helmets, it will be interesting to see what happens to the market for them. Some people are emotionally and financially invested to the degree that I think there will always be doubters. I expect the rest of these will be sold gradually to people that don't know any better, maybe dumped at shows or on eBay. It should be good theatre.

 

[GunKraut]

When (if?) the final coffin nails come out for these helmets, it will be interesting to see what happens to the market for them.

Solutions already exist.

Imagine the faces of the owners of those $7k sauce pans and strainers, not only their jaws will droop, I mean, drop.

 

[iron bender]

So I'm guessing this subject has been abandoned. Any new info?

 

[M45]

Ss decal identification pdf (ss-steel)

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell_original_helmets.htm

I just saw this PDF on the SS-Steel website. It mentions C-SS in some detail.
Pages 1-10.

 

[M45]

Pages 11 and 12.

 

[tjg79]

So I'm guessing this subject has been abandoned. Any new info?

We need someone with an active registration on GHW2 to report what's been posted lately if anything. I would have thought we'd have been informed by now.

 

[AzDoug]

We need someone with an active registration on GHW2 to report what's been posted lately if anything. I would have thought we'd have been informed by now.

I forgot my password, and every time I try to retrieve it, I get an error message.

 

[mostpeople]

I must not have a trained eye, I can't see a lick of difference between the runes =/

 

[tjg79]

I must not have a trained eye, I can't see a lick of difference between the runes =/

If your eyes aren't trainable like most people, then get an optical comparator so you can see the differences.

 

[M45]

Page 6. of the PDF file on the SS-Steel website: http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell...al_helmets.htm

3) NS Pattern or “Champagne Rune”. These appear in a wide and narrow variation, in very small number on a variety of M35, 40 and 42 helmets. These insignia are less understood and not universally accepted as original Third Reich, due to the amount of fakes that exist. Speaking about the original examples I have handled, here is my analysis from since my first encounter with this decal in the 1970s; and excerpts from my 2010 publication of the update edition of “SS-Steel”. Below is a wide style champagne rune decal on an NS M35 helmet, and a narrow style on an NS M40 helmet.


tjg79, I believe you mentioned that the wide and narrow variations in addition to some of these being seen as "fake" champagnes was due to the variations in template work; they could not make them all exactly the same. They appear in very small number which makes sense as they were not period mass produced like ET, EF, Quist and pocher SS decals. Champagnes are less understood and not universally accepted as original TR production all makes sense ... due to the amount of fakes that exist...(now we know they are all fake).

On page 1 he says that he has collected (SS helmets I assume) for 51 years (beginning in 1964) and his first encounter with C-SS was in the 1970s (early-mid 1970s I believe he mentioned elsewhere). This would mean that he collected SS helmets for about 10 years before C-SS first appeared, according to common knowledge of these (I believe the early first appearance date of 1976 was in one of the screen captures). Notice that C-SS is often found on NS helmets (M35, M40, M42), thus the 'NS-decal' terminology I commonly have heard in reference to C-SS.

On page 1 everything is blended together; Pocher-SS, Q-SS, NS/champagne-SS, EF-SS, ET-SS.