I believe this post was originally from GHW2 (July 2, 2013). I don't have the original screen capture, but those with valid memberships should be able to find it by doing a search. I made some minor edits (spelling, spacing). The reason for this post was IMO to answer the numerous questions Doug had been receiving about the Champagne SS decals.
EDIT: original screen captures below.
JULY 2, 2013 (DOUG'S CHAMPAGNE SS DECAL SYNOPSIS)
"Frank asked me via email for information regarding lot numbers on these but nobody can make any sense of these by lot numbers. There are so few you won’t find doubles and it is a vast oversimplification of the subject matter. To discuss this decal on its own and in the general sense forums discuss them (i.e.; It’s real, no its not, yes it is, no its not) without facts is pointless. The conversation on this decal in the past has been vastly oversimplified and been typically driven by those who mainly have never held an SS helmet never mind conducted an intensive in-depth study on SS decals.
In the interest of not having to revisit this topic which appears about once or twice a year with always the same result here are my thoughts of what I see is a highly complex matter and for what it is worth, you can take or leave them. Pardon the exhaustive post, but I believe it is necessary.
To date I have recorded 548 SS helmets into my database. This is by no means a definitive list and is incomplete and evolving like any lot number list or the lot number book (which used GHW database information). I have owned about 120 SS helmets give or take. I have had in my hand many more, who knows how many. I have also not recorded a fraction of the real ones I have held in shows, fairs, or with other collectors who were kind enough to share their helmet in person. The rest are recorded via dealer sites and the forums when enough information is available to make an entry and when I believe 100% the helmet is a real SS. I do not own the lot number book published by Brian Ice. None of my information comes from that book. All of them I have had a detailed look at in hand or by good photos.
Of these just over 5% are "champagne" decals, mainly on ckl M42's. That is not a large sample.
I will tell you what I have studied with these over the past 7 years and what I believe today, and what I simply do not know. I will leave it to others to thrash around in the muck afterwards, I am not interested in a debate or guesswork.
M35 NS; - Champagne decals; I prefer to call them NS decals. Why, because on the NS M35 they are distinct, appear on 1938 marked shells painted exactly the same using NS party decals. There are only a small handful (9 are recorded by Kelly I think, I have recorded 5). They are all identical in every respect primarily D shells in a tight cluster of lot numbers. 3 are named, 2 are fully researched. I own one of the named and researched ones (It was formerly a GHW helmet of the year) and have held in my hands to study 2 others. This decal appears on a transitional reissue I also owned at one time. Magnification shows unique fingerprints matching the NS from the reissue, and these NS decals are the only ones I have seen like this other than on an hkp M42 shell. These also follow the pattern of SS Pochers, which appear on only 2 known prewar SE M35 helmets, and reissues from the formative years of the SS. Historical application patterns like this are very important as we will discuss later.
Regarding hkpM42 shells; this is the gold standard for me for NS decals on an M42. Why, because they follow the identical application standards - few, tight cluster of lot numbers, matching decals - as on the M35 NS. The one I have was procured by Kelly vet direct roughly 30 years ago and has a 1942 liner band. It is clearly not a "late war" helmet. Unfortunately I have never owned or had the chance to get in hand any others in hkp. But the other 3 or 4 recorded match and the decals appear to match.
Regarding cklM42 shells; all have lot numbers higher than 3154, begin to intersect with ET decaled ckl M42's at this point and most have 1943 dated liner bands. After lot number 3318 there are no more recorded ckl M42 helmets with ET decals in my database. Why? Did they contract these NS decals or are they postwar applied? The no decal order went out in Nov 1943. That said I have owned lot number matching and perfect EF M42s with 1944 dated liner bands and know of 2 others. This means clearly the no decal order was not applied in every circumstance and the EF decal was not a decal applied in the field. These were clearly factory applied. And collectors like to think in our modern age that an order that went out on November 25 1943 at 11.45 AM was followed to the letter by 11.46 AM across all factories in all countries including all occupied countries adhered to by all slave labourers. That is in fact an absolute joke but collectors want, need and crave absolutes. Were helmets fitted with 1943 liner bands in 1944, certainly as there would be large stocks to use. So this is not definitive by any means. Most are in top condition and none I know of are named or have vet direct provenance. That said, 99% of our helmets have long ago lost any meaningful provenance as it was not recorded or was cared about by collectors or dealers as it is today. I have only owned and studied 2 of these and re-sold them back to their respective dealers a long time ago after I was done with their study like I did many many SS helmets I have owned for study purposes.
Regarding changes in the NS decal: Are the M42 decals different decals than the ones found on the M35 NS? Yes they differ indeed. It should be noted that ET SS decals change in about 1940 and there are 2 distinct Pocher and Q decals which appear to be from printing anomalies as the runes are "fatter" or "thinner", some appear to be double strikes or even triple strikes, and the print variation appears to be that of ink displacement which could be from sheet alignment or when the press was reinked. EF SS decals are the only ones which never ever change. Decals like any piece of equipment also evolve and this is noted with non SS decals as well as well as print anomalies giving a decal a slightly different look. The concern I have is there are 7 different kind of changes in these M42 variety of decals. The major changes I have observed are the runes which appear to "float" within the border, never aligning tightly, inconsistent spacing between the runes, width of the decal, and the thickness of the shield, including a very thick shield. This makes identifying real from fake a bitch indeed, especially for non SS helmet collectors and even for prudent SS helmet collectors. This is why many avoid them and I do not blame them one bit.
Regarding Fake NS decals; Do they fake these decals, yes indeed. I know of 2 distinct fakes that are very good, one even was printed using a gold toned pulver to simulate the bronze aging effect. Because there are so few real samples and so few collectors have them, they really muddy the waters of what is real and what is not. I know the varieties and there are some I believe are fake and will not touch. But this does not mean all NS decals are fake anymore than all Pocher decals are fake or all thin winged KM decals are fake (or even KM for that matter) However as I described above it makes identification of them very hard indeed and you need to have an evolved and highly trained eye to spot with definition a real SS NS M42 applied fake from a real one. Anyone saying they can definitively tell a real from a fake from 99% of the photos on forums of these is kidding themselves as these must be in hand and must be magnified. Mind you this can be said for any helmet and there is an ET fake decal that will spin your head. I will for this reason never buy an EF M42 SS with an ET decal on it. Those that do are taking a huge risk in my opinion.
Regarding SS decal to shell relationships; Pocher decals are exclusively found on pre-1935 shells of all kinds, a selection of ET M35s factory applied in 1938/39, and on a small variety of other shells mainly as re-issues or as said 2 known factory applications of SE M5s. It is clear this is a contract decal. Q decals are found on Q helmets, period. EF decals are found on EF shells period. ET decals are found on ET shells, however, some have appeared on M42 EF helmets and a small selection of other shells. Why? Nobody knows. For me, I will not touch an EF M42 with an ET decal. I have my reasons and they are not something I want in my collection. Others are fine with them. Thats fine with me as well. NS decals were not found on any other M35s. A reissue transitional follows the same path as the Pocher. Then on M42s in hkp in a same pattern as the M35 NS, and on later model cklM42s. Why were Pochers not used when available as a contract decal used on reissues and in the field (Double runics, reverse runic decaled Police helmets for example)? Why again? Nobody knows. Decal and shell relationship is not a fast and firm rule but it is important enough to pay attention to.
Regarding SS decal evolution ; To study SS decals you must study the organization itself. You cannot simply use decal to shell relationships. They were unlike any other organization and to make flaccid and simplified comparisons is cheating yourself of the reality of fact. Any hard core SS collector should have read in detail 3 books on the evolution and history of the SS, The Anatomy of the SS State, The Order of the Deaths Head, and The SS 1919-1945. There are many others but no study on any SS materiel is complete without a read and understanding of these books. That is my solid belief. The SS was a highly evolutionary and complex organization involving political, military, police, security, economic and paramilitary (and other) organizations throughout its history which started in 1919. It was not like any military organization helmet collectors study and thus compare to. You quite simply cannot compare SS collectibles to those of the Wehrmacht in the same context. The closest you can come is the Waffen SS which while they do make up the vast majority of the helmets we collect are not all of the helmets we collect. The SS was unique as it was highly evolutionary throughout its history and because much of the early 1925-1940 it was a generally small organization that was layered by territory. Thus procurement was often done locally and at the unit level extending to helmets and decals. It is quite clear from period photographs that beginning with plain black no decal helmets, to painted insignia, to evolutionary decals and then to the known varieties we most often see.
Regarding rare SS decals; I do not know of anyone who has studied all these in hand outside of Kelly Hicks and myself but it is relevant to the overall study in possibly understanding these NS decals I believe. (You can see my helmets in the Collections Thread). These would be the "SS-VT", the "Fat Runes", the "Nordic", the "Austrian", the "Mirror", the "SD" and the "white on black" variety of which I recently secured a period picture of a similar decal in use. I have an example of each of these on my shelves and have studied them in detail to 200 or 400x magnification, paint, liners,pins, etc. Each of these have a very distinct pattern that I believe without question the NS M35 decal falls into. An early locally made commercial decal for the NS factory. BTW I will say the "Nordic" variety is not a variety at all, I believe it to simply be a Pocher decal that is a triple strike causing it to look "fatter" than normal. I have seen them on other helmets and magnified them, there is no question in my mind they are a simply printing anomaly. As for the "Dutch" variant I have never had this one in hand therefore I cannot comment on it at all. But again, each shows a very unique and distinct application pattern, all have such small sample sizes as its impossible to draw wide conclusions and must be compared carefully. As well, all are believed to be locally/private or "boutique" procured.
Regarding high (200x-400x) magnification comparisons to other SS decals; The NS decals I have studied under magnification appear generally sharper in print, but do not posses any signs of modern print as far as I can tell. The pulver has a bronze effect and is slightly thinner than on other SS decals. But I have only magnified a small handful compared to 30 or so of Pocher, ET and Q SS decals and a good couple dozen EF. So I am very cautious to draw any conclusions other than there is a fingerprint I have noticed on these at 200 and 400x magnification which is unique. Each SS decal has this unique fingerprint under high magnification as does any Heer, LW or KM decal. In fact, any mass produced printed item made has a unique "fingerprint" at high magnification no matter what it is. Fakes cannot copy to the 200 and 400x magnification level, it is that simple.
Regarding rumour of the NS decal; Terry has spoken at length about the dealer who had sheets of "second pattern" decals he was applying to no decal M40 and M42 helmets. This would be therefore ET or NS decals. There are a tremendous amount of dead mint M40 and M42 ET SS helmets with ET decals out there unnamed with no clear provenance just as there are a lot of dead mint M42 ckl SS sporting NS decals unnamed with no clear provenance. I am cautious of any dead mint no provenance SS helmet in particular M40 and M42's for these reasons that no decal helmets were fitted with decals of all sorts postwar. This is why my collection consists of M35s and battle worn or named M40 and M42 SS helmets or helmets with some long history of collector pedigree. I have also heard the rumours from old collectors that these NS decals were made in New York as fakes. Certainly there is truth to the rumour because as I said earlier these decals, like all SS decals, are heavily faked. Because of the small sample size, it becomes difficult to know real from fake for the collector who has not had hands on these helmets before. A concern is the decals found on the majority of the ckl helmets are a wide variety of lot numbers, all are near mint, all have no provenance I am aware of, and none are named or unit marked. Fake, or real and postwar applied? As for unapplied SS decals, I have owned several Pochers, know of a few ET's. Never have I seen an unapplied NS, Q or EF nor have I ever heard of them being available from collectors decades ago. Mind you then it was "first" and "second" pattern but still, those decals if applied would be on a wide variety of helmets today and they are not. Yet I have experienced the top end fake Pocher unapplied as well as a Q. I have seen the ET and NS fakes unapplied. There isnt a good fake of the EF yet. So if there were sheets of unapplied or faked decals, I would think there might be some out there. Who knows.
My study principals; With my study on SS decals I have tried to avoid what I call "collector myth" propagated mainly by forums and rumour and rumour of rumour. There is no question forums have assisted in the study and furthered the collective knowledge out there but there is no question forums do much to propagate rumour, half truths, outright lies, and total ********. Ego, agendas, greed, friendships, paranoia and other human traits and fallibilities make in general forums today maybe one of the worst places to study. This forum we try to have indepth discussion but we are not the same forum we used to be try as we might, and the past few years these discussions often get derailed for the reasons I mention above and I have quit getting involved in them as they have become a waste of time, hard on my blood pressure and I have to moderate them anyway so guys don't freak out and kill each other. But I have begun to think that forums in general have served their purpose. It is more about possession and ego today than study and maybe thats the way it always has been but in the early days of this forum it was truly a place of respect, sharing and for studious collectors to push the knowledge envelope. In any case, I digress, collectors are about possessing, and thats cool. But mere possession doesn't equate to knowledge, so long as we remember that I suppose.
A real study can only be done with hands on many many samples of these helmets, not only exclusively from photos or books and telephone calls and stolen pics from the net. Recording the observations of helmets when in hand and the pertinent facts then into a database to do comparables is critical, looking for patterns and distinction and anomalies. I have drawn on my sons experience on hypothesis and conclusion and how they go about proper scientific analytical study. (he is an actual scientist getting his doctorate in molecular genetics so he knows proper methods of which I speak) and I have drawn from commercial industry specifically commercial printing, where I have a background in my former career as a commercial artist and I have a close friend who ran a fluid analysis company that used high magnification in the study of particles found in fluid for the oilfield industry (it can save a $250,000 thousand dollar engine or prevent the loss of a couple hundred million dollar per day shutdown of a plant so these guys must get it right).
To do a proper analysis one must have no agenda and the ability to directly challenge the conventional wisdom, and share these results with other like minded people for balanced feedback. This is what I have tried to do with my SS decal study. I dont care who owned a helmet before me or what a book says or what a forum says. I go with what I have seen and studied with my own eyes. I do respect what is written in books but remembering that the study of these is always continuing and evolving. A book does not represent a finish line by any means or the world would still be flat and dinosaurs would be lizards who lived in swamps to support their weight if they did. In fact, much of what is written on the subject of collecting in the past is pretty much obsolete today. Just like this thread, it will be obsolete when something new or unknown comes along. And like my knowledge, it continues to evolve but I have in my mind studied enough to make some definitive conclusions here and there and at worst, it guides me on making purchase decisions without consultation and for my complete comfort, no one else's.
Conclusions: This is and will continue to be the most problematic SS decal for me as I cannot find anything conclusive either way. They are not all fakes nor are they all real. The ones on the NS M35 I describe above are without question in my mind authentic and factory applied. Not found on other shells, on a small but tight lot range, and several named and researched examples with provenance. Like a Fat Runes M35, they exhibit the same qualities and are very rare. The rest, I leave for each collector to decide. I know what I like and what I do not like and I have been challenged on both on the forums and in discussion. All I can say in those discussions is if I am comfortable with it or not. But then usually a COA is thrown in my face from someone else or other meaningless commentary derived from book knowledge alone so discussion as I said earlier in forums, is nearly a waste of time.
It is not for me to convince anyone of anything but those that will think in general terms are collectors who are of todays internet world, they must have absolutes, they think inside the box, they want certainty and typically they will condemn all like this to validate their own narrow and usually unfounded opinions. So it is like talking religion and politics. I know what I have seen, I will continue to study and to learn and evolve my knowledge in the field of SS helmet collection and helmet collecting in general and I have my comfort zones.
I will not own an M42ckl with an NS SS decal today. But I also will not own an M42 EF with an ET SS decal either. Nor will I own a thin winged KM decal. Or any helmet with a decal with appearances of a fold or crease. There are many others for me not inside my comfort zone. But that is what makes collecting interesting when studious collectors can share opinion and agree to disagree.
In the end if you want absolutes, then any NS decal and in fact any SS decal variant, is not for you but then neither is any camo helmet or decal variant of any kind either. You must be comfortable with any decision you make on any helmet and I believe that someone like Terry who has an advanced study on the subject matter and vast experience to draw from spanning decades, will agree with I think.
Again, sorry for the long winded post but I don't have time to come and go back and forth and engage in discussion as I am very busy and will be offline for most of the summer months. This wraps up all what I know, what I believe and tries to put it in the correct context.
Cheers and happy collecting.
Doug"
