DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[tjg79]

Also, the overall new condition of the decals does not match the worn finishes of the helmets.

It's comments like that that will get you banned on all the lid forums.

 

[Hambone]

Appears as if the information is coming soon. My opinion of DougB is positive and solid. My guess, and what I've heard, is that he is getting all of the information together for a complete and bullet proof roll out and presentation. I'm going to ask him to post it here. I believe that if Maui and his XRFacts lid taser light show was issuing COAs on these, and they were, that DougB is shredding two hoaxes at once. IMHO the epicenter of irresponsibility and misinformation is at WAF. At best it is shameful hobby stewardship as a result of arrogance, toadyism, and buffoonery, IMHO.

 

[M45]

There's always that 10% that don't get the word.

M45's lot number research didn't kill the market for C SS lids, because the lid gurus still liked the lids more than they liked M45. It should have. However, I would expect the bottom to fall out of the C SS lid market after the revelation that the decals or transfers aren't in fact decals or transfers. The evidence against the C SS lid is piling up and the latest revelation, assuming solid proof from Doug B, should break the C SS lid backbone.

What is Hicks going to do with a slew of C SS lids once they start coming home?

He could open up a re-enactor supply depot or wholesale them to Mitchell's Mausers.

because the lid gurus still liked the lids [C-SS] more than they liked M45

tjg79, collectors merely expressing doubts about C-SS was never enough for the big-wigs to change any official opinions. Charlie Vaughn, Walter B., myself on GHW and WRF, and others expressing doubts, no matter how logical, never seemed to produce the public 'ah-HA' moment that we have seen recently in the template spray painted revelation. I'm convinced that if it wasn't for lot# research that changed opinions, C-SS would continue to be promoted. The research changed collector opinion, which in turn forced the revelation. Archived posts such as "Some, many do not believe they [C-SS] ever existed" show how opinions were changing.

 

[M45]

A blurb on GHW2 a few weeks back concerning C-SS:


Stevan, on 28 Sept 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

This is exactly in line with my way of thinking, if everybody in the helmet community combined their info on pressing numbers it would greatly improve the reference. With records lost or destroyed and over 25 million helmets made we will never have a complete record, but every bit of information is added is knowledge and knowledge is power against the forgers who would try to deceive us.
Only by working together and pooling our lnformation through forums, at Fairs and in books will we stay ahead of the pack.
You can probably decern from reading between the lines that I despise those who would make money by deceiving and cheering us collectors. I know many of you will have worked hard to scrape together money you can little afford to by a helmet you really desire only to find it has been interfered with.
Sorry for the rant getting off track.
Stevan



I agree with everything you say Stevan. 100%! The book in my opinion is a must have and Brian did a lot of great work with it. The database here is also a great work and as a veteran member you can access it free of charge. Brian and I dont agree on some things but we do agree on CH decals now and credit to him for leading the fight against them when books also printed counted them as existing. I must give Brian credit for that and applaud his iron stance on them over the years.

Doug

 

[tjg79]

It appears you are getting full credit for leading the fight against the C SS or CH decal lid.

 

[Hambone]

What we are seeing now is the "renaissance" which started occurring with K98k collecting in the late 90s. Knowledge and information became the domain of regular collectors, not just with a few people. The internet caused this, which worked in our hobby because our moderators, the "gatekeepers" were not infatuated with control and being the arbiters of information. We didn't censor and run off people who disagreed. IMHO, the previous censorship, abuses, megalomania, and profiteering influences on the German helmet collecting hobby retarded the maturation of its integrity and knowledge base. The official treatment of XRF in those circles indicated such immaturity, as did the handling (or lack of handling) of the "Champagne Rune" matter. I think the kitchen light was flicked on by the helmet lot number research and is being kept on and intensified by the exposition of the long running Champagne Rune hoax. IMHO, this begs many questions to the SS lid gurus and those who were trafficking in these high dollar SS hoax lids. Just like in K98k collecting, the genie is out of the bottle and is not going back in, which is a very positive turn for helmet collecting.

 

[nirvana]

It's rather astonishing that the idea of collecting data and using it for research/authentication is a revolutionary idea....in 2015. This has been going on for years in pretty much all other hobbies of this nature.

Hell, I've already started collecting data on Iraqi handguns, serial numbers, details, and so on, with guns that have only shown up in perhaps the last 20 years. My data pool is still small, and not very useful, but it's still there. I'm at least trying...

 

[M45]

What we are seeing now is the "renaissance" which started occurring with K98k collecting in the late 90s. Knowledge and information became the domain of regular collectors, not just with a few people. The internet caused this, which worked in our hobby because our moderators, the "gatekeepers" were not infatuated with control and being the arbiters of information. We didn't censor and run off people who disagreed. IMHO, the previous censorship, abuses, megalomania, and profiteering influences on the German helmet collecting hobby retarded the maturation of its integrity and knowledge base. The official treatment of XRF in those circles indicated such immaturity, as did the handling (or lack of handling) of the "Champagne Rune" matter. I think the kitchen light was flicked on by the helmet lot number research and is being kept on and intensified by the exposition of the long running Champagne Rune hoax. IMHO, this begs many questions to the SS lid gurus and those who were trafficking in these high dollar SS hoax lids. Just like in K98k collecting, the genie is out of the bottle and is not going back in, which is a very positive turn for helmet collecting.

Well said, Hambone. One troubling aspect I have noticed in the hobby is the idea of 'privileged information'; certain knowledge is reserved and protected for 'special people' and it is withheld from the 'commoners'.

Years back, GHW got the crazy idea that the lot# lists they appropriated from the now defunct MCF forum became their 'property', and when they found out I was using some of it in my lot# book, they locked their list down to 'outsiders', (a status that became my own at that time).

I have always been against the idea of 'privileged information' and so I made the lot# book available to all. This has in effect exposed the 'champagne hoax' in addition to countless other forged helmets and helped the collecting community free itself from the need to depend on others.

 

[M45]

That's the problem with SS lids. The legit SS lid population has been overwhelmed with restorations and fakes for so long that I don't believe there are lid gurus that truly know the differences and can sort them reliably. The reality is that if it looks good to the right people, then it's legit and worth a premium. The good news is that at least one class of fake, the C SS lid, has been outed with data analysis and high magnification visual inspection such that it shouldn't be polluting the supposedly legit lid population any longer. The bad news is that there are still thousands of fakes that are indistinguishable from legit original lids. The odds are such that if you see an SS lid, it should be considered a fake unless you can make the case otherwise; guilty until proven innocent.

Here is a good rule of thumb for M42 SS helmets:

I would advise collectors avoid the following M42 SS helmets as a matter of policy:

Quist M42
hkp M42
NS M42
ET marked M42 (very few 70cm large size)
qvL/bvL M42

The evidence points to no factory SS production with these shell types.

I would stick with known factory types such as:

ckl M42 (ET-SS decal) (avoid beyond approx. lot# 3318) M42 CKL66 3318 SD SS ZSH RTGG ET-SS LAST KNOWN ET-SS FACTORY DECAL

EF M42 (ET, EF, pocher SS decals) (avoid beyond approx. lot# 3591) M42 EF64 3591 SD SS ZSH SM 43STRAP RTGG POCHER-SS (LAST KNOWN SD SS)

 

[AzDoug]

Well said, Hambone. One troubling aspect I have noticed in the hobby is the idea of 'privileged information'; certain knowledge is reserved and protected for 'special people' and it is withheld from the 'commoners'.

This is exactly what I've seen with the SVT 40 sniper rifle community. The top secret notch in the receiver that no one may post a picture of lest the counter fitters know what one looks like. In all these years, some one serious about producing fakes need only buy an original, and viola!

 

[mdarnell19]

This is exactly what I've seen with the SVT 40 sniper rifle community. The top secret notch in the receiver that no one may post a picture of lest the counter fitters know what one looks like. In all these years, some one serious about producing fakes need only buy an original, and viola!

All you have to do is Private Message certain members and they will email you pictures of a real notch. There is no closed secret society. We just try to make it a little more difficult for fakers and for good reason. And this mind set is not so much the case anymore because of Ratnik's excellent work on revealing the other necessary components in determining a genuine SVT 40 sniper.

 

[M45]

C-ss at auction

http://www.grenadierauctions.com/current-auction.html

Lot # : 20
Group - Category : Antiques & Collectibles - Militaria - Third Reich Headgear
Description :
M-42 Waffen-SS S/D Combat Helmet
The helmet shell is marked with a very faint maker's marking, and size "66." It features a semi-rough field gray finish, which is approx. 95%. The finish shows light to moderate wear. The right side of the helmet features a "Champagne" SS Sig-Rune decal which is approx. 96% with several small chips and scrapes from period use. Please note that there has been some recent discussion regarding Champaign decals. Mr Kelly Hicks is currently preparing a lengthy essay on these decals, and why he feels that they are completely period correct. The helmet is complete with it's original, undamaged leather liner, which shows some chafing around the edge. The liner is complete with it's original chinstrap and drawstring. The three liner rivets are 100% original and untouched. The helmet is completely untouched, and is a fine example of a Waffen-SS combat helmet. The overall condition is very good+



High Bid : 1,400.00 USD Reserve not met
Time Left : 10d 7h 38m


The interior stamps appear to be: ckl66 349X, found near ND RTGG examples in the list.

An example of a C-SS ckl M42 that is not unissued. Note the repetitive pock-marking on the insignia to give it some semblance of wear that the rest of the helmet has.

 

[mrfarb]

So it appears the champagne fans are not going to give up! I look forward to the rebuttals and hope the truth is finally exposed to all collectors in the end.

 

[nirvana]

So it appears the champagne fans are not going to give up! I look forward to the rebuttals and hope the truth is finally exposed to all collectors in the end.

If you have to add "people say these are fake, but someone else is going to write an essay that says they are real" in your advertisement, you need to reconsider what you have for sale. Just sayin....

 

[Hambone]

The problem for the helmet community is will the unwashed masses, the waftarded and such, get the full story and an open transparent debate? Or, are we going to have to cover that one for them as we did XRFacts? The "game chanja" here is that Doug has a helmet site where WAF can't censor him and control the information that the unwashed receive.

 

[tjg79]

http://www.grenadierauctions.com/current-auction.html

Please note that there has been some recent discussion regarding Champaign decals. Mr Kelly Hicks is currently preparing a lengthy essay on these decals, and why he feels that they are completely period correct.

It appears that two lid collecting buddies are going to go head-to-head on this C SS lid topic. I think the supported facts will prevail.

I don't believe Mr. Kelly Hicks is capable of preparing an unbiased lengthy essay since it would appear that he would incur a financial liability if these C SS lids are fully exposed as post-war fakes.

We know what M45s lot number research suggests. We're now waiting on Doug B's report. I suspect that Kelly Hicks' lengthy essay will be a case study displaying what's wrong with the lid collecting community. If it's as good a defense as his defense of XRF lid testing, then I don't think the jury will be out very long.

 

[M45]

Mr Kelly Hicks is currently preparing a lengthy essay on these decals, and why he feels that they are completely period correct.

I'm not sure if the essay is this one that has already been posted. The meat of this one is that someone saw C-SS in the 1970s, liked it, saw other consistent examples in the years following and judged them to be part of the SS decal pantheon (in other words, completely period correct).

 

[tjg79]

Because that essay predates the current C SS revelations, and that it's not "lengthy," I don't think that's the essay that's being referred to in the C SS lid auction you posted. I suspect the new lengthy essay will rely on Hicks' experience buying C SS lids from vets with capture stories and I think Hicks will indicate that he believes all these vet capture stories. So, although there are some fake C SS lids, they all aren't fake and Kelly Hicks wouldn't authenticate a fake lid as legit. Therefore, if you have a C SS lid with a Hicks COA, it's a legit C SS lid and everybody else doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

[Hambone]

Because that essay predates the current C SS revelations, and that it's not "lengthy," I don't think that's the essay that's being referred to in the C SS lid auction you posted. I suspect the new lengthy essay will rely on Hicks' experience buying C SS lids from vets with capture stories and I think Hicks will indicate that he believes all these vet capture stories. So, although there are some fake C SS lids, they all aren't fake and Kelly Hicks wouldn't authenticate a fake lid as legit.

And that, coming from the SS Lid Oracle hisself, will be more than enough proof for the waftarded, particularly those who own these jewels, just as XRFacts was the "Savior of the Hobby". At WAF, the censorship that follows will produce the intellectual equivalent of what you see below, except with the "no it isn't" removed.

 

[M45]

If C-SS was a celluloid decal like originals, then it could all degenerate into a case of 'he said - she said'.

But if C-SS was painted on with templates as has been recently revealed, then it becomes a matter of attempting to justify a painted SS insignia as period factory production, something entirely inconsistent with known TR SS decal production/application.