"correct" scope for unnumbered Zf41 mounts

[Emilbusch]

Hello everyone, I'm rereading this topic and I have a question, do we have examples of zf4 mounts numbered at the end of the war? Why would they have found the interest in numbering the mounts of zf4 and not those of zf41? The problem of the optics adjusted on his rifle is the same for a zf4, as for a zf41.

 

[mdarnell19]

To date I have never seen a legit late ZF41 (which would be byf 44 k block and later) with a numbered mount.

My theory is they did not number these because as of mid 1944 there were not consider sniper rifles.

 

[kentomon]

There is no doubt they were not used as "sniper rifles" in the late war. So that is the reason they did not number the mount. Perhaps that is the fact. I must confess I have never seen a 5-digit L block numbered mount. Still, I do not understand why they had to issue so many scoped rifles (sure, not sniper rifles!) that would never hit.
I will be always waiting for more information.

 

[nirvana]

Do these unnumbered scopes turn up in numbered cases?

Also, the numbering isn’t needed if the mount just doesn’t get taken off and stored separately. GI’s with 03a4s managed not to lose their scopes or swap them around. Surely Wehrmacht discipline was tight enough that “don’t remove the scope” is something your average landser would understand and obey.

 

[mdarnell19]

There is no doubt they were not used as "sniper rifles" in the late war. So that is the reason they did not number the mount. Perhaps that is the fact. I must confess I have never seen a 5-digit L block numbered mount. Still, I do not understand why they had to issue so many scoped rifles (sure, not sniper rifles!) that would never hit.
I will be always waiting for more information.

But remember that you can have a 1943 byf L 5-digit mount. So the mount alone would not prove it. We would need to see one on it's matching rifle.

And since late Kriegsmodell zf41 rifles are the most common of the zf41 rifles one would think that we would have seen one by now. They are far more prevalently then turrets and long side rails and yet we see them and not zf41s. All my opinion of course.

Do these unnumbered scopes turn up in numbered cases?

Also, the numbering isn’t needed if the mount just doesn’t get taken off and stored separately. GI’s with 03a4s managed not to lose their scopes or swap them around. Surely Wehrmacht discipline was tight enough that “don’t remove the scope” is something your average landser would understand and obey.

So my theory on this is that they sighted them all at the factory on the same jig so they were consistent. This way if scopes did get changed around they would still be as accurate as iron sights. Hence another reason not to number the mounts. Rear sights were no longer being numbered at this point in k98k production. And of course as you point out, just don't remove the scope.

 

[Emilbusch]

We also see a lot of G43 rifles with rails but few ZF4s with mounts. It's probably the same for the zf41.

I don't think that in the end all the ZF41s were made on the same template. If this had been the case they would not have allowed the adjustment (zeroing). But the latest zf41s are built to be adjusted. Your theory is good and could have led to a further simplification concerning the zf41 which could have been a fixed tube machined and adjusted from the factory. But this is not the case. Zeroing is necessary on all rifles because the tiny variations in machining cause meters of drift at a shooting distance. A non-zeroed zf41 on a 98k shoots everywhere except where you are aiming. Going to war with such a weapon is not possible...

 

[Emilbusch]

Your tan “c” block box is probably from an early byf44. There are no svw c block marked Zf41 rifles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for your information. Are you sure there was no 98k zf41 after byf45? (98k zf41 code svw) I found in Germany a 98k full Kriegsmodell wood with the zf41 cut. This wood was used on an SVW-MB.The theory: either the French had 98k zf41s built to use existing stock parts and enrich their needs for sniper rifles (everything was available at Mauser), either it was a stock prepared zf41 for the second war and the French used it to make a standard 98k... Anyway, it's a good cut of zf41 wood, on full Kriegsmodell. I'm interested in your opinions. THANKS

 

[Emilbusch]

 

[mdarnell19]

We also see a lot of G43 rifles with rails but few ZF4s with mounts. It's probably the same for the zf41.

I don't think that in the end all the ZF41s were made on the same template. If this had been the case they would not have allowed the adjustment (zeroing). But the latest zf41s are built to be adjusted. Your theory is good and could have led to a further simplification concerning the zf41 which could have been a fixed tube machined and adjusted from the factory. But this is not the case. Zeroing is necessary on all rifles because the tiny variations in machining cause meters of drift at a shooting distance. A non-zeroed zf41 on a 98k shoots everywhere except where you are aiming. Going to war with such a weapon is not possible...

Your point about G43's only supports what I am saying. While rare, we see late K43 snipers. Remember that almost every G/K43 was produced with a side rail. A small percentage have had their removed. So this doesn't really relate to the ZF41

And to your second point, you may have mis-understood what I was saying. I believe all scopes were zeroed. Just not numbered.

Either way, I think that fact that no one has seen a legit byf44 late K block, L block or byf45 with a matching numbered mount makes for a strong argument that they never were numbered.

 

[mdarnell19]

View attachment 367600View attachment 367601View attachment 367602

This stock could have just as easily come off of a byf45 no letter block. Not sure what leads you to believe it was for a SVW.

 

[Emilbusch]

Thanks for the feedback. It was a question. I didn't know that byf 45 had full-kriegsmodell stocks. So, when did they appear?

 

[mdarnell19]

Thanks for the feedback. It was a question. I didn't know that byf 45 had full-kriegsmodell stocks. So, when did they appear?

I have a byf45 no letter block zf41 that has a walnut stock. I’m sure walnut stocks can show up on L blocks as well

 

[Absolut]

We also see a lot of G43 rifles with rails but few ZF4s with mounts.

Because the Führer himself was furious to get the new G/K.43 issued with scopes as sniper rifles. There are period documents where he clearly gives orders himself to use them as sniper rifles (btw, bit ridiculous, also orders them to equip all of the sniper rifles with silencers), whereas period documentation from OKH clearly illustrates the huge problems they had to get the G/K.43 shoot precise enough to actually make it worth putting a scope on it. It was an ongoing issue and you see many more G/K.43 rifles equipped with scopes towards the end, so either they then didn't care on precision any more, or they solved the precision issue, or a little bit of both.

 

[jangle]

A novice here on the 98k/ZF41 in general.
I have been searching through this site, but have not found the answer to my question, so I'll ask it here. I have a question concerning the stocks on ZF41's. I understand, factory built rifles had the stock relief for the rail/scope base cut-out, but I've read a quote from someone here on another thread where field modified rifles did not relieve the stock. Is there any truth to this? Seems the scope base would not clear the wood line without a relief cut?
Thanks for your time!