Third Party Press

"correct" scope for unnumbered Zf41 mounts

Zf41 mount

The only marking which is on every single zf41 mount is e/214 (marking from duv inspector ?), even on mounts used by ar or byf, which suggest, not prove, that duv was probably the "designer" of that mounting system.



jack944 said:
It is tough to prove either way. I remember a guy at the OGCA show years ago who brought in a minty byf 45 zf-41 that was dust covered. He didn't know what it was as his dad brought it back from the war. Lynn Lugar bought it. Mount was not numbered.

I can't imagine with the Germans so in need of any optically enhanced rifles that these mounts and scopes....which were available.. were not issued.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Matt I believe you misspoke in your original post, did you mean to say that the zf41 was discontinued and nomenclature dropped in mid 44 due to the poor results of the program?
Mike Steves and I have spoke about this in the past, why would MO go through the trouble to convert k98s to zf41 configuration, especially after the program was dropped? Unfortunately my matching zf41 is a no letter block, and the highest documented matching mount in the book is a c block. Mike believed these late zf41s could have been an irregular order, perhaps for the Volkssturm, similar to the late g33/40s that show up?

Could these late zf41s have been assembled later, outside of Mauser’s auspices?

Legit zf41s produced by MO have the “in house” WR proof on the receiver under the wood line, do the k block and later have the same proof?

Has anyone compared “fit n finish” on earlier zf41 rear mounts to a k block and later?
 
I am not very interested in ZF41 Rifles so I have nothing I can add informational but maybe these pics will be of some informational use to others . The Pics are of one I use to own . The link is to the replacement for the one I Sold/Traded . The RIA rifle was more interesting example and it was a complete Set the Can came with clarinol rag and lens brush and what I found really appealing was its a C Stock which I know is harder Stock variant to come by

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...sniper-scope&usg=AOvVaw1F9RX0jXdz4nk4nqkgw2J-
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0163.jpg
    DSC_0163.jpg
    234.9 KB · Views: 35
  • DSC_0166.jpg
    DSC_0166.jpg
    276.2 KB · Views: 38
  • DSC_0173.jpg
    DSC_0173.jpg
    275.9 KB · Views: 60
  • DSC_0174.jpg
    DSC_0174.jpg
    270 KB · Views: 49
  • DSC_0176.jpg
    DSC_0176.jpg
    266.8 KB · Views: 37
  • DSC_0178.jpg
    DSC_0178.jpg
    268.9 KB · Views: 38
  • DSC_0180.jpg
    DSC_0180.jpg
    271.4 KB · Views: 41
Last edited:
Thank you very much all for your comments!! This is very interesting. Please let me think for a while since I have to understand English first!
I just stick to the Point, the armorer zeroed the scope, and then the set was sent to individual soldiers. If something was wrong, the set would be sent back to the armorer again. It's not like adjusting your own scope. Anyone had to see the set is a set. I can't think numbering the mount is like numbering the Serial# on K98k that can be omitted.
 
I am not familiar with Serial numbers of K98k.
From my database, the highest scope Serial number of CXN is 194104 with a rifle Serial number 25166 C on the mount.
And looking at other numbers on the mount, perhaps the highest Serial# is 37484 K.
What can you say about these rifles?
 
kentomon said:
I am not familiar with Serial numbers of K98k.
From my database, the highest scope Serial number of CXN is 194104 with a rifle Serial number 25166 C on the mount.
And looking at other numbers on the mount, perhaps the highest Serial# is 37484 K.
What can you say about these rifles?
Click to expand...

Ken
Serial numbers and letter blocks repeat each year of production of MO.
If the letter from the OKH came down in June of 44, I’d imagine they would have been in the “e”block of production. Are there any documented matching mount zf41s after the e block of 44? I’d say serial 37484k block would have been a prior year of production.
 
Ken, yes what Damion said. Best guess without seeing the rifles, I'd say that the rifle serial number 25166 C is a byf44 and the rifle serial number 37484 k is a byf43. The C block wouldn't be a byf45 (or SVWMB), and I think it is too early for byf43. The K block also can't be byf45 and is possibly byf44 but without the matching rifle, impossible to say.
 
mdarnell19 said:
Ken, yes what Damion said. Best guess without seeing the rifles, I'd say that the rifle serial number 25166 C is a byf44 and the rifle serial number 37484 k is a byf43. The C block wouldn't be a byf45 (or SVWMB), and I think it is too early for byf43. The K block also can't be byf45 and is possibly byf44 but without the matching rifle, impossible to say.
Click to expand...

Zf41s are interesting but a vast waste of materials. I want a couple regardless but
what a looser IMO. I suspect their effectiveness was marginal. Cost/benefit analysis must have to have shown a negative IMO. Bet the system decided to make them regardless, mostly political and connections I bet). Glad they made them regardless. Very interesting. Matching optics, a big plus. Easy to Zero too(joke).








e
 
Thank you for the info.
Yet, I still believe unnumbered mounts were not used with the rifles.
My thought is that from existing examples we cannot define the truth, so I am neutral on this. I understand no matching numbered pair is observed on late byf44 and 45, while legitimate K98k-Zf41s do exist on those rifles. I agree the easy way to explain this is that they used unnumbered mounts. But this is still a surmise and I don’t think this would prove the fact they used unnumbered mounts however it is likely to be true. On the other hand, even if one example of matched late byf44 pair pop up, it still doesn’t prove they never used unnumbered mounts either. This is why I am neutral on the result of observing existing examples.

As I had been saying, I am thinking about the meaning of numbering the mount. My opinion is that marking the mount to make an effective set, to show which rifle the scope was zeroed, was essential. I understand no matter it is treated as a sniper rifle or not, if one is using the scope he has to adjust it to the rifle to make it effective. The purpose of numbering the mount is to keep the scope together with the mated rifle. This was a rule from the very beginning of K98k-Zf41. Even it was downgraded as “Karabiner”, if they spent time and money to make K98k-Zf41 rifles in late 1944 and early 1945, no wonder the scopes on these rifles were adjusted. There is no reason not to number the mount if this was done. Of course, these are my thoughts I cannot prove, and I would love to hear your opinion.

Or perhaps I am wrong on these. Can you hit the gun without zeroing the scope? Or was the Volkssturm or whatever provided with a non-adjusted scoped rifles?
If so, I agree my theory is completely wrong.
I hope my English is correct to say what I want to say.
 
Thank you for your thoughts Ken, they are always appreciated. And yes, your English is good and understandable (better then my Japanese, or Spanish or English for that matter).

As of now this is all theory. Perhaps one day we will figure this out. Again, if people had pictures of legit matching, late rifles it would help.
 
I have never seen a ZF-41, that was not matching the rifle, able to hit a cow at 100 yds. My best one was 8 feet right and half a foot low. I just used a huge target and got about 1.5 MOA. Not bad at all but that is a bit more Kentucky windage than I would want to use on a regular basis. They were definitely zeroed to a given rifle for a reason IMO.
 
Since Antonio brought up this thread where he was looking for information, I may give cross reference to another post of mine on .22 ZF41 trainer rifles:

Absolut said:
Digging through original files I came across a document dating 24th January 1945. It treats a sniper course at the school for "gang fighting" ("Bandenbekämpfung" in German; tough to translate that to English). The course was (weapon-wise) equipped with 60 scoped rifles, 30 "DF" (what I assume means "Doppel Flinte", English "double shotgun") as well as 6 .22 rifles with ZF41 - and very interestingly they list these originate from H Za Naumburg.

They do not mention the model nor the maker of these guns, but at least it is documented that these guns originate from Naumburg.
Click to expand...

Important in this context is the date - beginning of 1945! This means the ZF41 was still used in 1945. Therefore to assume they were (fully) obsolete by 1944 cannot be correct. Additionally I checked the book of Simpsons. The Gustloff KKW serials he lists end at 272.808 - so really close to when the ZF41 scoped Gustloff KKW rifles can be encountered (around 270.000). Therefore this would roughly fit to the date of the document where ZF41 scoped .22 rifles are issued.

Stuff to continue the research from this: the original mounts seem to all carry fzg coded ZF41 scopes in there. Compare the serials of known fzg scopes that are NOT in .22 mounts (easily recognized by the six digit serial number on them) with the ones used on .22 rifles and one might assume the serials above those in .22 mounts were never issued (I know this is vague since this is based on the assumption the fzg scopes were actually issued and not all put aside - but this can be confirmed/denied by comparing if fzg coded scopes are also known in serialized mounts and if these have a lower serial than the ones in the .22 mounts).
 
Good morning all. I agree with Ken. It is not possible for a zf41 scope associated with a 98k to be unnumbered from the 98k serial number. Because without number, there can be mixture with other zf41. However, a scope set on a 98k cannot go with another 98k, this will not be precise and very dangerous for the soldiers. It doesn't make sense not to number.

Another hypothesis of the late numbering is that we found numbered boxes of beige color with the d-ring. These are the last boxes produced. I have one in letter C. Certainly 1944 block C.
 
So the consensus is that un-numbered zf41 mounts aren't original k98 snipers?
 
The problem is with the latest assembled ZF41 K98k byf44 l block and byf45 no letter block : they are not exactly rare but for the moment no know numbered Zf41 is associable to one of them .
 
tonino7 said:
The problem is with the latest assembled ZF41 K98k byf44 l block and byf45 no letter block : they are not exactly rare but for the moment no know numbered Zf41 is associable to one of them .
Click to expand...

Exactly this. We need to see detailed pictures of a LEGIT factory matching late rifle. I am yet to see one, so currently I am of the belief that they were not numbered in late 44/early 45.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Military Rifle Journal
Back
Top