"correct" scope for unnumbered Zf41 mounts

[Nigromontanus]

The rifle is of 44, but the scope is IMO from a late 1943 k98. It is a relatively early scope, having just a + and not a triangle as later ones do.

Latest scope and can I have is a dym made for 1944 F block, if the one shown above is not from 1945, but 1944. I am not so familiar with guns.

I have noted when collecting equipment that in the last months of the war the practice of numbering and stamping stopped sometimes, so I cannot rule out - even though I do not like the theory - that these ZF41 were actually not engraved/stamped with gun number. Anyway, the sniper should be able to remember the SN of his scope and put not another one on. They are also not engraved nowadays.

 

[Xavier]

I agree with you Paul. The scope is 43, not 44. I just put the scope on that late zf41 k98 because of the closed rifle serial number on it, nothing else.

By the way, the rail of that late 44 k98 is stamped with a waa 135 on it, as it should be.
Best regards

 

[kentomon]

Nice rifle and scope Xavier!
The scope is Type2 and likely to be from byf43, but can’t say it was never used with byf44.

Here are two pictures of captured K98k-Zf41 from ETO report dated 14 Feb. 1945.


The rifle is byf44 F block. (Let me know if I am wrong.)

The scope is Type3 ZF41/1, not matching but numbered, also F block.

The scope can be from byf43, but also can be from byf44?

It is a pity the scope is numbered, because if it was not, it would be an evidence showing the use of the scope unnumbered in the action. And I could believe they were unnumbered late war.

 

[Absolut]

Good morning all. I agree with Ken. It is not possible for a zf41 scope associated with a 98k to be unnumbered from the 98k serial number. Because without number, there can be mixture with other zf41. However, a scope set on a 98k cannot go with another 98k, this will not be precise and very dangerous for the soldiers. It doesn't make sense not to number.

So why then are ther 1945 dating rifles with ZF41 scope rail? Were they not issued with a scope, or how do you explain those? Secondly, you can't compare them with sniper rifles. A rifle with ZF41 is NOT a sniper rifle, not even the Germans called it that way.

Finally, just a thought: We accept that many parts including rear sight leaves are withot a serial late in war, but we don't accept that an aiming aid late in war would not carry a serial number on it?

 

[tonino7]

Exactly my tought Georg : from the end of the 1944 many part were no more numbered . At least from the byf44 l block also the E135 on the base were omitted , so we can think that also the numbering of the mount was considered not necessary : probably the rifle complete of the scope was simply handed to a soldier /volksturmer , directly responsable of the whole thing .

 

[kentomon]

Marking serial# on the mount is NOT like omitting K98k rifle serial# here and there on the rifle parts late war. It is not a fancy. It has a necessity just to keep the scope and the rifle together and to show the scope is adjusted. No matter it is a sniper or not, if it is a serious weapon, the scope must be adjusted to the rifle. I guess nobody would think they used un-adjusted scope, a rifle that will never hit. So then, where was the scope adjusted? We all know the shooter himself cannot adjust the scope. Were the scope and the rifle sent to the front and adjusted behind the line? If every unit had that ability, it is possible that the shooter waits for his rifle to get adjusted and then rush to the front with the scope on his rifle and never take it off. Then, I would agree there is no need to number the mount, but I don’t think that was the case. The system is complicated, and I believe not so many had that ability. So whoever adjusted, the set had to pass several hands to get to the shooter. How do you tell the scope is adjusted and to which rifle?
I believe byf44 and 45 were used with the numbered mount, but I have to admit that the existing example are not found and that leads to the possibility that they were not numbered at all. Still, from the questions above I do not agree it as a fixed theory “Late mounts were used unnumbered”.

 

[BMWMilhist]

Interesting thoughts!

Certainly many excellent points for and against potential late war usage of unnumbered mounts.

One unavoidable truth is the very basic fact that the additional metal used to manufacture the zf41 sight base vs. a regular rear sight would prove significant when multiplied over 1000s of rifles through ‘44 & ‘45.

Even if, say, there was a massive surplus of these sights produced prior to these dates, if it was known that the system was no longer going to be used, why not easily shear this metal away prior to installation fo the sight and use elsewhere where greatly needed? It would also prove expedient in terms of labour as the stock inletting would no longer be necessary.

With respect to the unnumbered mounts, again, we’re talking a significant amount of steel which was being neglected if the system was not being leveraged late war. Why not melt and re-pour? The waste of an optic is additional icing on that cake.

Perhaps Mauser dropped the e135 base waffenampt when they stopped numbering the mounts, hence why late rifles do not have that stamp. This could just mean that the requirement to sight in was to be done elsewhere so Mauser could focus on straight production. For example, we see plenty of the zf41 sighting tools as made by CXN and others, but obviously far far fewer than zf41 systems. Could this be an indication that these had been leveraged at a unit level to make adjustments for multiple unnumbered setups? Admittedly, I don’t have one of these so unsure what precisely they’d do in aiding the process of accurizing, but they were clearly built for a purpose. Who knows. Unlike a sniper rifle, absolute precision was not the intent of the zf41. Just food for thought.

I personally struggle with the massive wastefulness of letting these bases go unmounted and mounts/sights sitting idle during such a time of need. Not really represented anywhere else in German weapons manufacturing during the late war.

I should mention, I’m no expert whatsoever, just trying to walk out some logic, so please take it with a grain of salt!

Cheers, Brandon

 

[mdarnell19]

Ken, I agree with your thoughts about send a ZF41 rifle to the front that is not properly zeroed. I would find it hard to believe that they expected soldiers to do that (for the same reasons you gave, it was difficult).

So here is another theory, what if the Mauser zeroed all scopes to the same standards and they installed them on rifles. The ZF41 seems simple enough that if you swapped scopes on 2 different rifles that were both zeroed in, that they would still work. Or at the very least be close enough to be acceptable. Does this make sense?

 

[Absolut]

I agree with Matt. If they were considered obsolete, why at the same time when using up the remaining stock bother to serialize them to a rifle? Fit them from factory and tell the soldiers to not remove it. The chances that two persons carrying a ZF41 unnumbered mount rifle at the same time at the same location seems not this likely late in 1944 and 1945.

 

[Emilbusch]

Ken, I agree with your thoughts about send a ZF41 rifle to the front that is not properly zeroed. I would find it hard to believe that they expected soldiers to do that (for the same reasons you gave, it was difficult).

So here is another theory, what if the Mauser zeroed all scopes to the same standards and they installed them on rifles. The ZF41 seems simple enough that if you swapped scopes on 2 different rifles that were both zeroed in, that they would still work. Or at the very least be close enough to be acceptable. Does this make sense?

No, this is not possible because it is possible to turn the setting to infinity. the zero is done by turning the objective in its support. both have an eccentric. and the one turning relative to the other rotates the visual in the optics. thus by rotating the 2 parts, it is possible to align the target point on the tip of the reticle. if a bezel is set to a 98k, that bezel will only work with the 98k it was set for.

 

[Emilbusch]

Scopes, mounts and boxes were produced in very large quantities compared to the total number of 98k rifles fitted with the original rail that could accommodate the zf41.In France, it is easy to find an unnumbered zf41. On the other hand, you have to get up early to find a numbered frame or a 98k fitted as standard with the rail that can accommodate the zf41. In addition, the French army had until the end of the 1950s a stock of around 18,000 zf41 scopes. These scopes would be seizures of land and factories. Maybe zf41 glasses waiting to be affected has 98k were seized from Mauser during the French occupation. What is certain is that a good part of this stock comes from the kov factory located in Paris. France aimed to adapt the zf41 to use it as standard on the MAS 45 automatic This project could not be validated because the necessary modifications could not be carried out on the different types of zf41. The serial modification did not work on all types.The zf41 project was abandoned, some of the carring cases of this huge stock were destroyed and the zf41 scopes with their mounts and a small quantity of boxes were sold to the civilian market in France. It is impossible that such a large number of unnumbered mounts were associated with 98k. I am talking about this to say that the zf41 was produced in very large quantities. And that today it is easy to find new factory equipment.This material is not numbered.

 

[Emilbusch]

Here is the last model of carring case that we know. this is a model that appeared from 1943 and is still manufactured later because it has a half-ring zipper.this late box is numbered. maybe this will help to understand ... it is the latest box that I have. block "c". My skills in 98k numbering are very limited ... I don't know if this is possible in 44 or then in 45, is there a "c" block in 1945?

 

[mrfarb]

Your tan “c” block box is probably from an early byf44. There are no svw c block marked Zf41 rifles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kentomon]

I have heard of the information on ZF41s in France after the war. I believe the story involves the truth on eccentric kov ZF41/1s. I wish to know the whole story someday.

Anyway.
Again, my opinion is that from the lack of the surviving example, it cannot be said definitely that numbered mounts do not exist and thus the numbering was not done.
At the same time, I also cannot deny the possibility of the unnumbering. If the adjusted scopes are interchangeable as Matt mentioned, the number could be omitted, but I do not know if it is possible.

I had been wondering where the mounts were numbered. It seems to be a consensus that they were adjusted and numbered at each factory. So, when there was an order to produce K98k-Zf41 (rifles with mount rail) again in late 1944 and early 1945, it is natural to think the process, adjusting the scope, was also resumed at the factory, no matter the mount was numbered or not. And then the set was sent to the front. But how? I am sure a soldier will never come to the factory, fetch the rifle and go straight back to his unit at the front! They were sent by means of transportation, perhaps through military depot, together with other weapons.
I have a K98k-Zf41 byf44 L block Kriegsmodell. (I am sorry to say it is deactivated, shown by the markings on the gun, perhaps unfamiliar to you.)

How many K98k-Zf41 were made in L block, I don’t know. But I know this is not the only one. There could be several sets finished and stocked at the factory same time. How were they distinguished? I cannot think the easier way than numbering the mount, just as they did, several months before.

 

[Absolut]

Think I found some documents regarding this topic .. dating 25th June 1943 and refers to the delivery plan of the ZF 41 and ZF 42. I'll do a rough translation:

Regarding A 1a) Karabiner: to avoid misunderstandings the office notifies, that the ZF for Karabiner 98 k with 1 1/2 magnification (old model with 12 lenses) uses the designation ZF 41. The identical scope in simplified design (6 lenses) was originally ZF 42, later finally ZF 41/1 named.

Among the total of 370 000 pieces
are ZF 41 and ZF 41/1 included.
Up to 31 May 43 were delivered 87 396 pieces
retracted orders 62 400 pieces
therefore open balance 220 204 pieces

Delivery plan for 1943:
June: 11 500 pieces
July: 17 500 pieces
August: 18 000 pieces
September: 18 000 pieces
October: 19 000 pieces
November: 19 000 pieces
December: 19 500 pieces ---------------------------------------- 122 500 pieces

It will be tried to stop the production of the remaining balance of 97 704 pieces according to the wish of AHA IN 2.

The production companies will be told, that for ZF 41 and ZF 41/1 end production delivery date is 31.12.43. It is supposed, possible amount, that was not delivered by this date, to be cancelled.

The office assumes, that with ZF 42 the ZF Voigtländer 4-power is meant. The start-up of this scope is supposed to be in October 43 with 500 pieces. Estimated delivery:
October 500 pieces
November 1 000 pieces
December 1 000 pieces
January 2 000 pieces
February 3 000 pieces
March 4 000 pieces
April 5 000 pieces
May 6 000 pieces

An additional increase of production cannot be started yet, because by now only 50 000 pieces were ordered and the total amount of AHA / IN 2 was named at 150 000 pieces.

In a meeting at General at Chef H Rüst on 22.6.43 was announced, that additional orders should be expected, therefore a monthly production of 35 000 pieces is to be aimed at. To be able to make the necessary planning immediately, expects the office the corresponding orders. After receipt of the orders a final deliver plan will be submitted.

(lower part refers to what we later know as ZF4, but thought I should translate it as well since it won't hurt to read it either)

 

[kentomon]

Great find and information!
So this was what Mr.Senich was refering in his book.
Thank you very much.

 

[Absolut]

Had a typo in the second part where I by mistake typed ZF41 where it said ZF42. Edited this.

Back to topic, kentomon what do you think of this? Technically this would allow all ZF41 scope suppliers to deliver in worst case up to 97.704 ZF41 until end of 1943. This is more than 25% of original contract volume, deducting the cancelled 62.400 pieces this puts it at up to 44% of the total volume. Wouldn't this explain why there are unserialized ZF41 scopes out there, since these were simply the scopes which were delivered by factories until the official end date which were later used up in normal production? I mean even if it wasn't very helpful, if you had up to 97.704 spare ZF41 scopes, you would try to nevertheless get them out on the field rather than putting them aside.

This could also explain why there were so many never delivered/partially finished/unfinished kov scopes - they simply missed the closing delivery date of 31.12.1943...

 

[kentomon]

Isn’t the first part also ZF42?
“… simplified design (6 lenses) was originally ZF42? later finally …”

I totally agree with you that if they had spare scopes they will not hesitate to use them. So this is why K98k-Zf41 were still manufactured in late 1944 to early 1945. And they were not supplied to snipers as sniper rifles but treated as mere Karabiners. I believe we can agree up to this point.

But numbering the mount is a different discussion. I have to repeat them all again.
And I will also repeat that I am not insisting that the late mounts must be numbered. I just don’t like to make a theory “late mounts were used unnumbered” as a fact without enough proof.

 

[Absolut]

Thanks for pointing out the second typo, I corrected it as well.

Well, we have the proof that the end delivery was supposed to take place on 31.12.1943. We have enough rifles to proof that after this point of time still rifles with ZF41 rails are to be found. If the ZF41 program was officially ended, why are we then to suppose they still should be numbered?

Different question, did you log ZF41 serial numbers? I wonder how "large" the quota is for the unnumbered mounts of the total amount, just based on observations. Would this come close to any of the numbers I named?

 

[kentomon]

This is the point our discussion does not match. Why, on what purpose do you think the mount was numbered? Only because it was a rule for the ZF41 program?
I had been saying the reason was to keep the calibrated scope and the rifle together. If it was intended to be used as a serious weapon, the scope had to be adjusted to the rifle no matter who uses it, a sniper or a soldier, or even a volkssturm. I am just wondering how that was done without marking the mount.

From the serial number extension according to my humble database, I can estimate at least 268k scopes were made in total. Although I have only 600 data, I have not counted the number of the unnumbered mounts. But they are for sure much more than the numbered mounts.